Attention Raw Feeders !

[Britster]

I do believe that biologically, dogs are practically the same as wolves (differing only by .02%). That is proven. I do believe dogs are carnivores but I don't really like when people claim that ALL dogs will thrive on raw and not kibble or "death nuggets" as I've seen them called. And yes I also do believe in avoiding certain ingredients, and I don't really think a meal of corn, soy and wheat is necessarily in most canines best interest, however I do realize there are exceptions. And obviously if a dog is simply not tolerating another diet, that is the prime choice for your dog.

According to the co-evolution theory, dogs have evolved alongside us from wolves... in other words, they were turned from wolves into dogs by selection pressures. Selective breeding does a lot of funny things so I definitely see no reason not to believe that some things have changed internally. Certain breeds are predisposed to such things as pancreatitis (Schanuzers, Yorkies, etc), some to other health issues. Sibes and GSDs are often known for somewhat sensitive stomachs. I also know that wolves were not being fed the way that most raw feeders feed their dog... they obviously weren't given meat from the grocery store that is most likely pumped full of antibiotics anyways, but surely not as much time and prep was being put into their meals. They weren't taken to the vet when things go wrong, they weren't sleeping indoors, or given the best possible care, or given antibiotics when infections set in, etc, etc, etc. Medical care for pets is a pretty new invention, too, but I'm certainly not going to reject it in a time of need. If our dogs were out in the wild, nature really could care less about anything living a long and healthy life... it's all about survival of the fittest and if you don't make it, oh well.

Kibble is a pretty new "invention" and a lot of dogs lived very well without it. Humans that were probably living on hardly anything themselves were surely not giving up all their good food and meat to the dogs... they got scraps (of anything from corn mush and other grains) to whatever they could hunt themselves. So lucky for us, dogs are very adaptable creatures and can survive on a lot of different things.

I'm not in any way saying feeding raw is bad.... if anything, I think that if it does work for your dog, it's probably ideal. I do believe in making things as natural as possible, but like I said, "natural" is used loosely here because I wouldn't want my dog living how he would have to if he were on his own. I think a lot of dogs do fantastic on such a diet, and I love to see a dog thriving, who maybe was suffering on kibble before... I love the idea of feeding raw and I'm happy it works so great for so many dogs. Bottom line is that all dogs are individuals, and yes certain breeds are predisposed to things that others may not be, and what one dog may thrive on another may not...

There is just way too many variables out there to say that "my dog lived a longer and healthier life eating x food" or "my dog died because of eating y food". So many other factors come into play. There are going to be raw fed dogs that die young and there are going to be kibble fed dogs that live a long time (and a healthy life at that) and vice versa. Obviously it's up to us as dog owners to decide what is best for our dogs and what works best for THEM. We clearly all love our dogs very much.

I find canine nutrition very interesting and have spent a lot of time reading & researching, and even changing opinions on certain things. I am kinda all over the map, because I really do see both "sides" to the ever-going raw vs. kibble argument. But one thing that never changes, is that I do want what is the very best for my dog, and we've found what works and are sticking to it!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Don't humans also share 99% of our DNA with mice and 98% with apes? LOL. But I get your point. I've followed this thread, too, and the whole subject of raw feeding since learning about it on YT - and want to feed Tibbe the best thing for him that comprises the least risk to his day-to-day health and lifestyle. Still not convinced that raw feeding is for Tibbe because wolves ate/eat it anymore than I want to eat the mice/ape diets my above "brothers" ate/eat but giving it my first serious hard look all the same, as early dogs ate raw a lot but they also ate any scavenged cooked food, cooked/raw veggies, fruit & grains they could get once the boldest or least shy befriended man and started to evolve into canines. I'm still reading all that I can but still unsure if ancestral dogs' supposition of eating all raw is basically why dogs are fed it or there are years of credible studies by financially disinterested entities of pure reputations proving its health/longevity benefits and how risks are calculated into the final assessments - or both. So I am still reading and reading.

This vet warning that is set to come out has really gotten my attention though. Are they the same organization of vets whose vaccine protocol is now largely seen as the healthiest to follow or a different group, I wonder?

I would do anything to keep Tibbe from getting sick as he did in early June and lasting over a month so am vitally interested in this thread.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Don't humans also share 99% of our DNA with mice and 98% with apes? LOL. But I get your point. I've followed this thread, too, and the whole subject of raw feeding since learning about it on YT - and want to feed Tibbe the best thing for him that comprises the least risk to his day-to-day health and lifestyle. Still not convinced that raw feeding is for Tibbe because wolves ate/eat it anymore than I want to eat the mice/ape diets my above "brothers" ate/eat but giving it my first serious hard look all the same, as early dogs ate raw a lot but they also ate any scavenged cooked food, cooked/raw veggies, fruit & grains they could get once the boldest or least shy befriended man and started to evolve into canines. I'm still reading all that I can but still unsure if ancestral dogs' supposition of eating all raw is basically why dogs are fed it or there are years of credible studies by financially disinterested entities of pure reputations proving its health/longevity benefits and how risks are calculated into the final assessments - or both. So I am still reading and reading.

This vet warning that is set to come out has really gotten my attention though. Are they the same organization of vets whose vaccine protocol is now largely seen as the healthiest to follow or a different group, I wonder?

I would do anything to keep Tibbe from getting sick as he did in early June and lasting over a month so am vitally interested in this thread.

Oh, yes, I am in agreement with you, that it's questionable what is best for our dogs. I don't know if there's really one right answer.

FWIW, dogs and wolves can still reproduce. We cannot do that with mice or apes (ha, at least I hope nobody tries!) So I'd think wolves & dogs have a lot more in common than any other species.

Also, don't apes eat a lot of fruits, and plant material? I do know they are not all strict vegetarian though, either, as they do eat insects for animal matter. Technically speaking, we probably could survive on a diet of what apes eat in the wild, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I know studies were done on why humans live longer than apes, and they were saying because we eat more meat. However obviously many humans thrive on vegan/vegetarian diets as well. Again, individuals, all different.

Oh and no, I believe it is is AAHA which provides the 3yr vaccine protocol vets should be following, not AVMA. However I still think 3 years is way too often, and most research backs that up, so I don't really believe AAHA protocol to be the best choice either. But that's a whole 'nother debate... Lol

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Britster

Oh, yes, I am in agreement with you, that it's questionable what is best for our dogs. I don't know if there's really one right answer.

FWIW, dogs and wolves can still reproduce. We cannot do that with mice or apes (ha, at least I hope nobody tries!) So I'd think wolves & dogs have a lot more in common than any other species.

Also, don't apes eat a lot of fruits, and plant material? I do know they are not all strict vegetarian though, either, as they do eat insects for animal matter. Technically speaking, we probably could survive on a diet of what apes eat in the wild, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I know studies were done on why humans live longer than apes, and they were saying because we eat more meat. However obviously many humans thrive on vegan/vegetarian diets as well. Again, individuals, all different.

Oh and no, I believe it is is AAHA which provides the 3yr vaccine protocol vets should be following, not AVMA. However I still think 3 years is way too often, and most research backs that up, so I don't really believe AAHA protocol to be the best choice either. But that's a whole 'nother debate... Lol

And while humans can't breed with mice or apes, we do use parts of pigs and mice and for biomedical measures to keep certain body parts functioning and mice/apes/chimps and pigs are used for biomedical research and study/development medical techniques specifically to benefit humans. Humans and animals share a lot of similar DNA as do wolves and dogs and I guess other animals. Mammal life on land is all very similar, isn't it?

When my parents were children, they said their dogs ate parts of chickens but they were taken away for family food, occas. caught/ate rabbits, squirrel, roadkill, old/rotten fruits/vegetables/meats but mostly lived on table scraps and lived to grow up with the family! Daddy's 2 dogs got run over rather young & he got no more. Mother's dog, Drover, which sounds like a Staffy, was in his teens when he died and he was bitten by a black snake he attacked in an effort to prevent it from attacking mother as a child. She said it was chasing her(?). She said his head swelled up to basketball size for 3 days and he was comatose for longer, neither eating or drinking and no medical support at all except cold compresses and my grandfather gave it liquor in its mouth. She said Drover never broke a bone or limped.

Dogs when I grew up lived on canned dog food and table scraps and my Tippy lived to be 16, my sister's Archie lived to 9 or something before he was lost. Both were healthy except Tippy contracted distemper and lived through that with little in the way of vet support. He took some dropper medication for a week - had no IV's or fever reduction Rx. No cooling pads. My brother had a Boston, Archie, and he lived until he was old and gray. He did wear an E-collar for something he had, otherwise healthy on canned dogfood, tablescraps.

Regarding the interchangeable foods all the species mentioned above consume, it seems that no one diet is accepted by a majority of humans for any significant period of time until problems of one sort or another are identified and I guess it is the same for dogs, too. We see that the different species - humans, apes, mice, pigs, wolves, dogs can eat similar foods and some even thrive on a certain type of diet while no one diet seems to service humans or dogs best to any majority without its own set of problems eventually seeming to crop up in the form of deficiencies, food-borne pathogens, diseases of one sort or another, raising alarms. Doesn't it seem like the bar we set so high for what and how much of what is best to eat ourselves and feed our dogs is ever changing?

[concretegurl]

Just random in several places in Asian people still eat raw...yes even raw meat.

Shoul DC othr or all of us, should we hear these people dony get cancer no reported cases of anything other thn externally caused infection...well I say they evolced that way and more research is needed.

It may be healthier for people too but I dont even like shushimi so...

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Just random in several places in Asian people still eat raw...yes even raw meat.

Shoul DC othr or all of us, should we hear these people dony get cancer no reported cases of anything other thn externally caused infection...well I say they evolced that way and more research is needed.

It may be healthier for people too but I dont even like shushimi so...

Some men eat their steak practically raw here in Texas. Sear each side a tad but leave it over the grill such a short time there is blood running out of the center when cut. It looks pretty awful to me, though. I can't imagine eating raw beef or chicken! I can't even eat undercooked chicken - besides that, it's dangerous.

[gracielove]

I always fed my other dogs kibble. I had to start looking into dog foods when I got Gracie and she refused to eat kibble. I never really understood ingredient labels on dog food but trusted these companies to do what was best for our dogs. The more I read about the ingredients the more I realized that a dog would not of it's own eat many of the ingredients on that list.

Then I realized that many of the ingredients in some kibbles were much like the breakfast cereals and white bread we eat. No real nutrition in it's self but the natural nutrition is taken out and then replaced with synthetic vitamins that replace the now extinct nutrition that was taken out.

I worked as a nurse for many years and in Family Medicine for the last 15 years. Many of the health problems people are having these days are diet induced issues. We are stressing our bodies by eating processed foods and foods that have been changed by being genetically engineered. High fats, too much and too many forms of glucose as well as chemicals and preservatives have invaded our bodies and caused many issues that a sound diet would prevent. I don't know that we can go back because the food industry has changed so much in the way foods are grown and then processed. Even the farm land that our foods grow in have been stripped of the natural nutrients. Instead of crop rotation, chemical fertilizers are used to make the crops grow.

I am so intent on feeding raw because I feel very strongly that many health issues for humans and animals can be prevented with a good healthy diet that includes fresh fruits, vegetables and meats that have not been contaminated by chemicals or changed by man made means. Just like animals some people's bodies are better able to hold off the destructive effects of a bad diet than others are. It depends on their own genetic strengths and abilities to resist the onslaughts on their systems.

Personally, when I was in my mid 30's I had gained weight and was eating poorly due to taking care of kids and working. Just too busy to eat well. I ate a lot of fast food and things that were easy to make. I slowly just found myself losing strength and even desire to do things. I started to contract illnesses easily and was not myself. At first I thought it was natural aging. Then I decided to go on a diet of eating what I imagined people ate before life became so complex, like some of the things my grandmother would make. I cut out all white bread and most dairy products. No food that came in a box or bag was allowed in the house. I ate mostly fresh fruits and vegetables with very little meat. I did eat as many fruits and veggies as I wanted. The body is able metabolize those and does not store them as fat. Usually if I ate meat it was chicken in my salad and maybe some chicken at supper. I was too busy to get into any serious exercise but I did walk to and from work everyday. Plus I was on my feet most of the day. The weight dropped off me like hot butter. I went down to my normal weight of 103 and felt light as a feather with 100 times more energy. I know what a difference a healthy diet can make. I stopped picking up every illness that came into the office and did not miss work at all. Healthy food is so vital for humans and I feel strongly that it is every bit as much so for our animals.

There are some kibbles out there that look much better than grocery store foods but Gracie does not agree. I would prefer to feed something more convenient but not at the expense of Gracie's health. I have searched and continue to search for another form of doggy health food. ZiwiPeak looks interesting to me. The lady that owns the pet food store I go to showed it to me about a week ago but I haven't really had a chance to study it yet. Some of these companies take grain out and replace it with other things that I don't think are beneficial, so I guess the perfect food may not have been created yet. I do know that what I feed Gracie now I can feed with a clear conscience knowing that they are healthy ingredients that she would want to eat if offered separately. Processed foods are not what any of our bodies were made to survive on. I wish the food industry did not make it so expensive to eat healthy fresh foods. I guess it is one of the downfalls of living in such a modernized society.