Morgan had her recheck BAT

[kalina82]

A few months ago I did a BAT on Morgan and it came back slightly high. 45 pre and 65 post. its suppose to be below 10 and 20 respectively. She doesn't have a portosystemic shunt but more likely MVD. She is asymptomatic and on a RAW diet.

Two days ago i retested her to see if her results had changed. The pre was 66 and the post was 67. So all in all it stayed the same. The pre was probably a fluke. she might have snuck food without me knowing.


So now i'm wondering if dogs that are fed raw simply have different normal levels. I've heard that they BUN is usually high compared to non raw fed dogs as well (morgan's is, but only very slightly). maybe these "off" numbers are "right" for dogs fed this diet. Not wrong but just held to different standards.

Have any other raw feeders found this to be true??

[Yorkieluv]

Did she have a blood panel done last time and were all of here numbers normal?

[kalina82]

I've done a cbc/chem on her a few times and they either come back normal or have slightly elevated numbers from the average which are associated with raw diet (or so i've read).


I just want to compare morgan's results to other raw feeders that have done BAT or CBC/Chems on their dogs.

[Ladymom]

A raw diet may not be appropriate for Morgan. It is usually recommended only for healthy dogs with no underlying medical conditions. Lady is a diabetic and cannot have raw. Her body can't handle the bacteria in raw like a healthy dog can.

Liver compromised dogs do best on high quality proteins from chicken, white fish, eggs, cottage cheese and tofu as they produce the least amount of ammonia. Red meat produces the most. If the liver is damaged, the ammonia will get into their system.

Here is a great article about nutrition and the liver:

Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

A raw diet may not be appropriate for Morgan. It is usually recommended only for healthy dogs with no underlying medical conditions. Lady is a diabetic and cannot have raw. Her body can't handle the bacteria in raw like a healthy dog can.

Liver compromised dogs do best on high quality proteins from chicken, white fish, eggs, cottage cheese and tofu as they produce the least amount of ammonia. Red meat produces the most. If the liver is damaged, the ammonia will get into their system.

Here is a great article about nutrition and the liver:

Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

I do not agree with this way of reasoning. I agree that liver compromised dogs do need an easy protein to digest. Dogs are meant to eat meat, therefore that's the easiest for their biological self to digest and process. Cottage cheese, tofu, and vegetarian diets are not on the menu.

the averages and "right" numbers for blood panels were all done on dogs eating a mostly kibble diet. So yes those averages are correct for dogs that eat that food. Now take a dog that eats a higher protein food. Who's to say that the normal averages for kibble eaters are the same as raw eaters. Raw fed dogs probably have a different average, that doesn't make it wrong or unhealthy.

[Yorkieluv]

kalina82, I do believe that diet, lifestyle, age, breed, etc. can mean different "normal" ranges for different dogs. Dr. Dodds has extensive experience in this, and you could probably contact her for a consultation. You can send bloodwork directly to her for her to analyze, etc.
Or you could probably send her an email with questions. She's usually pretty good about answering them.

However, I have seen repeatedly the negative effects that meat proteins cause for truly liver compromised dogs. I've seen it over and over again myself....
Dr. Center even explains how encephalogenic these proteins are for dogs with liver problems. They produce high amounts of ammonia that are not filtered in a liver that's not working properly and the ammonia enters the bloodstream and causes everything from inappetance to lethargy to seizures...This amount of ammonia causes unnecessary and hard work on the liver leading to damage.

Meat is not good for these kinds of dogs...It is not at all easy for their bodies to process when they have compromised livers. Also, compromised livers usually lead to compromised immune systems...

Dr. Center has done extensive research on nutritional management of dogs with liver disease. There are several articles by her that can be found online.

I'm not talking about your baby here...I'm just putting the info out there...

Hopefully some other raw feeders that have had bloodwork done on their dogs can post their results for you

[kalina82]

I have been reading about Dr. Dodds research. I think i will email her about the bile acids. The blood panel i did on morgan at the same time as her first BAT came back all within the normal ranges. I do not believe she is liver compromised.

I have yet to see anything comparing bile acid results. I've found regular blood panel results comparing raw and kibble fed. Has anyone else found these results on the internet?

[Ladymom]

Dr. Center developed the bile acids test and did all the research. This is from her seminar handout:

Page 5:

"Cutoff range considered abnormal: we determined an appropriate cutoff value to discriminate normal dogs from abnormal dogs based on review of hundreds of bile acid values in dogs with biopsy confirmed normal or abnormal liver status."

This means that they took large samples of dogs with both normal and abnormal bile acid values. Then they took liver biopsies to see if the bile acid numbers matched pathology vs. no pathology of the liver.

"...we set the cutoff value to discriminate normal and abnormal >/= 25 uMol/L. We then tested this against a large population of dogs examined by liver biopsy to be sure that this value did not generate in false positive tests (dogs that had no liver abnormality yet still had abnormal test results)."

In other words, they specifically tested for false positive.

Liver compromised dogs can have normal blood panel results. I've seen that with two puppies in the last year on the Maltese forum I belong to. Both had cbc's done before going home at twelve weeks and ALT, BUN, etc. were normal. A few months later both were BAT tested and had abnormal results. Both had Protein C tests which were normal and were diagnosed with asymptomatic MVD.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Dr. Center developed the bile acids test and did all the research. This is from her seminar handout:

Page 5:

"Cutoff range considered abnormal: we determined an appropriate cutoff value to discriminate normal dogs from abnormal dogs based on review of hundreds of bile acid values in dogs with biopsy confirmed normal or abnormal liver status."

This means that they took large samples of dogs with both normal and abnormal bile acid values. Then they took liver biopsies to see if the bile acid numbers matched pathology vs. no pathology of the liver.

"...we set the cutoff value to discriminate normal and abnormal >/= 25 uMol/L. We then tested this against a large population of dogs examined by liver biopsy to be sure that this value did not generate in false positive tests (dogs that had no liver abnormality yet still had abnormal test results)."

In other words, they specifically tested for false positive.

Liver compromised dogs can have normal blood panel results. I've seen that with two puppies in the last year on the Maltese forum I belong to. Both had cbc's done before going home at twelve weeks and ALT, BUN, etc. were normal. A few months later both were BAT tested and had abnormal results. Both had Protein C tests which were normal and were diagnosed with asymptomatic MVD.

Good point Ladymom, I read this as well and she was very specific about the fact that they used a large sample size and took biopsies of all who had abnormal results to check for false positives...That's how they determined the cutoff values, I believe.

[kalina82]

this is all great information and believe me i've read it and fully understand it. I work in the field and have also done my own research.

this thread isn't about why some think its wrong to feed high protein to liver compromised dogs.

I am interested in blood tests done on raw fed dogs so i can compare. that's all.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by kalina82

this is all great information and believe me i've read it and fully understand it. I work in the field and have also done my own research.

this thread isn't about why some think its wrong to feed high protein to liver compromised dogs.

I am interested in blood tests done on raw fed dogs so i can compare. that's all.

I don't believe any diet specific research was done by Dr. Center re: bile acids tests. Her testing ruled out false positives by biopsies of the liver. You could email her for more information.

Feeding high protein diets to liver compromised dogs isn't "wrong". Too little protein can actually damage the liver. The key is feeding the right protein. A consult with Dr. Dodds is a great idea. I know several people who have had specific diets developed for their dog by Dr. Dodds.

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by kalina82

this is all great information and believe me i've read it and fully understand it. I work in the field and have also done my own research.

this thread isn't about why some think its wrong to feed high protein to liver compromised dogs.

I am interested in blood tests done on raw fed dogs so i can compare. that's all.

kalina82,
Sorry for going off topic earlier, but the last 2 posts seem relevant to what you were asking...They explain that Dr. Center used a very large sample size to determine the cutoff values for normal/abnormal and actually did biopsies to check for false positives.

I hope you're able to get some more info on this topic!

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

I don't believe any diet specific research was done by Dr. Center re: bile acids tests.

This would be an interesting study. I'm hoping since raw feeding is become more and more popular that researchers will look into this and other health issues. it would be interesting to see if there is a difference in certain things between the two physiologically.

[TLC]

TJ and Roxy were both eating Raw - mOrigins at the time of their first BAT

Roxy was 43 (pre) and 100.9 post - I immediately put her on the Dr. Dodds diet and then she had a CBC and urinalysis, u/s and coagulation done about 2 weeks later - all was normal.

TJ was 5 (pre) and 43 (post) - again I put him on the Dr. Dodds diet - he had the CBC and urinalysis done about 2 or 3 months later - All was normal.

Roxy's post is now anywhere from 60 to 85 and she has been on a low but quality protein diet and treats, I am not "hard core" strict with her, b/c she hasn't showed any typical signs, but I do, do what I can with her.

TJ's post has come down to 1.3 - he never had another high post - after a year of doing the same diet and supplements as Roxy and getting back below normal post #s - I have decided to put him back on Raw.

I will retest BAT on them Both in January - as my Vet feel yearly is good at this point now.

Don't know if that helps you at all