Shunt Questions

[Tiramisu]

I've been on here all morning reading posts re liver shunts. I have many questions and would absolutely appreciate your help.

A four month old puppy that I sold has a 160/250 bile acid reading. When found lethargic, she was taken to an emergency clinic, but perked right back up. Followed up with regular vet and found the excessively high liver reading. Now, she's going to a specialist for more testing.

My main concern is on the health of this baby girl. The owner is a friend of my daughter. Trying to be a responsible breeder, I offered to give the purchase price back and take the puppy and was told, "Thanks, but no way!". I told her that if it is genetic, I will refund the price of the puppy. Of course, she said that I don't have to do that because she was just calling to see if I've had any other problems.

Traci did also tell me that she, her two daughters, and the pup had ALL recently had UTIs.

1) Have I offered enough? Do I need to do more?
2) What do I do with my 3 adults IF it's genetic?
3) Do I call everybody who's gotten pups from me and pay to have them all tested?

[4gracealone]

Bless you for being so conscientious.

I would notify the other owners of this NEW development in your breeding line.

Let them know that the LFT's liver function tests would alert if something more needed tested and to then do the Acid testing.

This could be a reason for retiring your breeding stock for some breeders.

I hope other breeders can give you great feedback.

I would want to know if the breeding line produced any issues.

[Ellie May]

You are such an awesome breeder for caring.
I answered your questions in the text below.

Originally Posted by Tiramisu

I've been on here all morning reading posts re liver shunts. I have many questions and would absolutely appreciate your help.

A four month old puppy that I sold has a 160/250 bile acid reading. When found lethargic, she was taken to an emergency clinic, but perked right back up. Followed up with regular vet and found the excessively high liver reading. Now, she's going to a specialist for more testing.

My main concern is on the health of this baby girl. The owner is a friend of my daughter. Trying to be a responsible breeder, I offered to give the purchase price back and take the puppy and was told, "Thanks, but no way!". I told her that if it is genetic, I will refund the price of the puppy. Of course, she said that I don't have to do that because she was just calling to see if I've had any other problems.

Traci did also tell me that she, her two daughters, and the pup had ALL recently had UTIs.

1) Have I offered enough? Do I need to do more?
Refunding the price of the pup is fair. You could also take that one back and offer a new one but since the family is attached, I would go with option A.
2) What do I do with my 3 adults IF it's genetic?
Spay/neuter and do not breed them again. If you want to continue to breed, study the lines of all your breeding dogs for liver problems and have your breeders bile acid tested before breeding. If it were me and I spayed/neutered the dogs that you are breeding now, I would also do bile acid tests on them.
3) Do I call everybody who's gotten pups from me and pay to have them all tested?

If it is genetic, that is what I'd want done.


UTIs are a symptom of liver problems.
Did the pup have a urine culture?
It needs an ultrasound to look for ammonium urate stones.

[Tiramisu]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

You are such an awesome breeder for caring.
I answered your questions in the text below.


If it is genetic, that is what I'd want done.


UTIs are a symptom of liver problems.
Did the pup have a urine culture?
It needs an ultrasound to look for ammonium urate stones.

Thanks for your help. I'm waiting to hear back from the specialist before I contact any of the owners.

Not sure about a urine culture. They might have done one when she had the UTI. I pray that there's not something going on in the whole house since the humans had a UTI at the same time. Traci questioned that maybe they were drinking bad water.

My 3 adults have had their testing and were normal before first breedings. My vet didn't feel I needed to have it done each time.

Do you have yours tested before each breeding?
How do I research the ancestors?

[Ellie May]

You don't need to do it before each breeding. Just once after about six months old...

It is good that your adults were tested but shunts can go back 10 generations, so in the end if one of the great grandparents etc. had it, it doesn't matter if the parents don't.

To research their lines you would probably have to know the breeders that you got your dogs from and ask if they searched their lines and in turn they would have to ask their breeders...........

Ellie's bile acids have been tested three times because they are high.
I don't breed.

[Tiramisu]

This pup was returned to me yesterday and I'm extremely confused. Three different vets have found nothing wrong with her. The owner told me one story, but I found a different story on one vet's paperwork.

On 2/22, she was just laying around, wouldn't stand up, so she went to a local vet who did a blood glucose, gave her something for constipation, an IV for dehydration, and a polyflex injection. Later that night, she went to the emergency clinic, got a urinalysis, abdomen ultrasound (showed moderate echogenic debris in bladder), another antibiotic, amoxicillin, and lactulose syrup for constipation. She followed up on the 23rd, with the puppy acting her normal hyper self. The bile acid test was done on the 27th, at Banfield/Petsmart, showing high counts.

So, now for the other page. When she was taken to the emergency clinic, they were told that she had been playing outside, chewing on a dead bird a couple days before, while spending a few days at a friend's house. And, it was noted on the form that she had eaten a bleach pen a few days before that and could have eaten toys, crayons, etc.

She's too fat for her age and structure, weighing almost 5#s at 4mo. I think they were feeding her more snacks than food. One of her brothers is at 3#s, same structure and height.

Oh, and she had not had any puppy shots or dewormings since she left me!

I feel so guilty and sad that this little girl has gone through this, but am so happy that I have her back. I honestly feel that she suffered a few tramas, wasn't being fed properly, missed vaccinations and that the antibiotics boosted her back up.

Please help me understand!

[Ellie May]

I imagine that if the bile acids were up, it could have been from the meds if they were given before testing.

Did these owners break your contract in any way?
I guess there is nothing you can do if they didn't.

[Tiramisu]

No, I don't see where they broke the contract at all. I only refunded the original puppy price, not any of the vet bills. I honestly think the puppy was bought for the 4 and 12 year old daughters and when they lost interest, momma didn't want to deal with it. There were several comments made towards that end.

She brought the 4yo with her so we made a big deal that the pup wanted to be back with her parents and she seemed OK with it. Then, I traded her a stuffed yorkie for the puppy and told her she could come visit.

[Yorkieluv]

You should really have a BAT done again in 30 days to check...If by any chance she does have a liver problem, it is important to know now...She did have elevated numbers.
Make sure that she doesn't take any flea/heartworm meds or any type of vaccinations or antibiotics within 2 weeks of doing the BAT. Although some vets don't think these things can skew a BAT, other vets believe that they can.

[Tiramisu]

So far so good. She, Izzee, has been back with me for a week. She's eating well and has actually lost a little weight, which is a good thing. I plan to have her re-tested when I get her last shots at the end of the month. Izzee's a sweetheart and I hope she's OK. My D-I-L reserved first rights to her IF I decide to let her go.

[bjh]

Thanks for the update, I am glad things are going well.

[Patti]

Good to hear she's doing well.

[LittleDaisyDoo]

First and foremost you should tell the owners you sold to about this new info. Offer to give tbeir money back and take the pup. ( most likely they will refuse because they love them already) and then give them info on how to deal with it. Daisy had a liver shunt, and I found that switching her diet to 14% crude protein, stopped the symptoms, and she had to take medication for her UTI. She's better than ever now!

btw, the food she's eating can be found ina ll pet stores: Nutra Lite. It's a brown bag...ever since she's eaten this..she has done So much better and she went back for a blood test, adn she was fine. no shunt.