Urination Problems (any ideas?)

[Ellie May]

I will recap Ellie's issues for those who don't know and for those who do you could go right to paragraph 2 and read that.

Ellie was urinating in places that are unlike her in the spring of 2007 (on the couch...). Urinalysis showed slight infection. She was treated with clavamox. This didn't seem to clear it up and/or it came back. The vet couldn't get a sample this time so she did an xray to look for stones (found none) and put Ellie on Zeniquin. Ellie seemed okay after this but she still seemed to have accidents in places she shouldn't be. A few months later (fall 2007) the problem started getting worse again. The vet did another u/a and urine culture. Everything is fine. Ellie was spayed and was still urinating in places she shouldn't afterwards. The vet asked if I wanted to bring in a sample. I said no. They aren't finding anything anyway. She said to get pH strips and test. Her pH is 7. After her last accident flairup about a month ago, I thought she was fine because it has been about a month since she has peed on the couch, bed... Well, last night she peed on the bed. I was gone so I thought it was separation anxiety (the vet has been saying possibly behavior problems since fall). Then this morning she went outside to pee and then there was also a spot in the living room, so I don't know what is going on.

So my question is, what is the next step if u/a's keep coming back fine and an xray has been done. It is not incontinence because she squats even when she is having an "accident". I know it would be good to do a u/s to look for stones but that is so expensive and I don't think the vet thinks it's necessary. I guess I will have to get her thoughts on this. Anyway, the vet will do any tests I ask her to do, so are there any we should be doing? The vet's next thought is diabetes insipidus but Ellie doesn't drink too much, so she thinks behavioral. I just don't know. Any thoughts?

[Wylie's Mom]

Hmmmmm, this isn't really my area. But, did the xray comfirm that "structurally" she was okay/normal? Does she go frequently or just normal frequence? If there is frequency and urgency, there's just got to be a reason. If it's not frequent/urgent, then it does appear to be behavior or just that she smells the old spots and wants to go. I wonder if she has some odd sub-clinical infection that doesn't really show up on tests but does cause some symptoms.

Have you tried giving only purified water (vs. tap)? You've probably heard me blab about that nutritionist I've used - Susan - and I checked her page; she does work w/ UTI patients. I'm linking you to the UTI "supplements" page - I don't know if any of these products will "ring a bell" for you, but maybe something could help....? I'm not much of a help here, but I did want to say that I hope you find a solution!

[Ellie May]

Thank You Where is the link?

I don't know about giving her supplements (although it is a possibility) because usually you give one for acidic urine and one for alkaline (depending on your dogs problem). I don't know the problem, so I don't know if I should supplement.

The xray looked just fine. During Ellie's spay the vet even looked at her bladder and said it is normal. We are all very confused. She has had a couple of blood panels lately and they are normal...

As for frequency and urgency, she usually pees about five times a day (I would say that is very normal). Some days she may go six or possibly (but rarely) seven. Six times a day is too much for her and this happens when she has a lot of moisture (which is fine) or when she goes on the furniture. She had gone maybe three times in three or four hours about two months ago. This happened a couple times. When she goes on the bed, couch... it makes me think she can't hold it. When she pees in the house it is usually in one of two spots and if it's not there I know there's a problem. She has peed in four places that aren't normal for her in the last month. The last two times (last night and this morning) she shouldn't have had to go (especially this morning).

I am glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is strange.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Thank You Where is the link?

OOPS!!! http://www.askariel.com/pages.asp?pid=uti

Ya know, even my Wylie (3 yr old) will pee on the carpet out of nowhere at times. It used to be MUCH worse - so, it's better but it's still frustrating and odd bc he knows how to ask to go outside. So, it IS weird....and frustrating not to know why.

If there are times when she simply just can't hold it, it makes me wonder if one of her urinary sphincters is a bit unsound. When she goes on the bed, is it a normal amount - or like a "oops" amount (like a smaller amount slipped out)?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

OOPS!!! http://www.askariel.com/pages.asp?pid=uti

Ya know, even my Wylie (3 yr old) will pee on the carpet out of nowhere at times. It used to be MUCH worse - so, it's better but it's still frustrating and odd bc he knows how to ask to go outside. So, it IS weird....and frustrating not to know why.

If there are times when she simply just can't hold it, it makes me wonder if one of her urinary sphincters is a bit unsound. When she goes on the bed, is it a normal amount - or like a "oops" amount (like a smaller amount slipped out)?

I couldn't tell you how much but it is more than a few drops. I had thought about this but wouldn't she NOT squat then? I mean, unless she only has a one second warning and no time to get down. She is not really well trained and will go on the floor sometimes but she hadn't started going pee on the furniture (after puppyhood was over) until her first UTI last spring.

[Ellie May]

I think I would be totally willing to forget it and relax but it concerns me because kidneys are delicate and if something is wrong it has to be treated.

[Tammyh]

Is it possible that because she's had accidents on the couch and bed in the past, she thinks it's ok to go there? I'm certainly no expert, it's just a thought. Maybe she needs to be retrained? Again, grasping at straws here

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Tammyh

Is it possible that because she's had accidents on the couch and bed in the past, she thinks it's ok to go there? I'm certainly no expert, it's just a thought. Maybe she needs to be retrained? Again, grasping at straws here

LOL, she needs to be trained, PERIOD. Not retrained.

I would say it is possible but I don't understand why she went on the liviing room floor this morning when she had just gone pee outside.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I had thought about this but wouldn't she NOT squat then? I mean, unless she only has a one second warning and no time to get down.

Well, it makes me think of humans who have incontinence issues - where one feels something about to come out, and there is a bit of control (in early/less severe incontinence, that is) - but you "gotta go quick". So she could, theoretically, still have time to quickly squat.

The peeing right after going outside also reminds me of prostate issues and some female urinary issues - where you go, and then, right after, you STILL feel like you have to go. So, then if there is no infection - it does kind of make one wonder if it's structural.

That said, I've had crazy potty training issues (esp. w/ Wylie) and we are actually ripping up our carpet bc of it....so, you're not alone if it turns out to be just behavioral or a training issue. Can you "wall off" all your carpeted areas? We have done that for looooong stretches - it's a pain, but it helps w/ retraining.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Well, it makes me think of humans who have incontinence issues - where one feels something about to come out, and there is a bit of control (in early/less severe incontinence, that is) - but you "gotta go quick". So she could, theoretically, still have time to quickly squat.

The peeing right after going outside also reminds me of prostate issues and some female urinary issues - where you go, and then, right after, you STILL feel like you have to go. So, then if there is no infection - it does kind of make one wonder if it's structural.

That said, I've had crazy potty training issues (esp. w/ Wylie) and we are actually ripping up our carpet bc of it....so, you're not alone if it turns out to be just behavioral or a training issue. Can you "wall off" all your carpeted areas? We have done that for looooong stretches - it's a pain, but it helps w/ retraining.

We pulled the carpet. Yorkies, you gotta love 'em. There is one carpeted room she goes in and rarely pees in it. I have to talk to her vet next week so I will run all of this by her and see if she has any other ideas.

[TLC]

I have similar problems with Roxy. However, she does have anxiety and nervious behaviors so I always seem to blame it on that. First she has the excited pee - which we have really controlled. She also like to mark things ex: everytime I wash the bathroom or kitchen throw rug, Roxy must pee on it. The cycle never ends - But Roxy will also run to her box to pee a tiny drop when she is under stress. ex: I am leaving (during weekend time).
Roxy also has the cycle of peeing and not peeing. There are a few months when she only pees in her box. Then there are times when she will contantly pee in the box and on all the thorw rugs and even on the tile. Most instances it's only a little bit and she is 'purposly' doing b/c she is in her pee position.

I too have brought in samples and everything is ok. So being that I know Roxy does have some behavioral issues, I have to say that is what it is all about.

I hope you can get to the bottom of it

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by TLC

I have similar problems with Roxy. However, she does have anxiety and nervious behaviors so I always seem to blame it on that. First she has the excited pee - which we have really controlled. She also like to mark things ex: everytime I wash the bathroom or kitchen throw rug, Roxy must pee on it. The cycle never ends - But Roxy will also run to her box to pee a tiny drop when she is under stress. ex: I am leaving (during weekend time).
Roxy also has the cycle of peeing and not peeing. There are a few months when she only pees in her box. Then there are times when she will contantly pee in the box and on all the thorw rugs and even on the tile. Most instances it's only a little bit and she is 'purposly' doing b/c she is in her pee position.

I too have brought in samples and everything is ok. So being that I know Roxy does have some behavioral issues, I have to say that is what it is all about.

I hope you can get to the bottom of it

Okay, here is my theory. Roxy, TJ and Ellie are related.
TJ might have liver problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Roxy might have bladder problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Isn't it Roxy who loves to eat? So does Ellie.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Okay, here is my theory. Roxy, TJ and Ellie are related.
TJ might have liver problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Roxy might have bladder problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Isn't it Roxy who loves to eat? So does Ellie.

I totally KNEW you'd get to the bottom of it in no time!

Btw, what-didja replace your carpet with? We wanted hardwood, but still not sure that's best for dogs - so we may go laminate in one room and then textured concrete in another. Oh my....

[TLC]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Okay, here is my theory. Roxy, TJ and Ellie are related.
TJ might have liver problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Roxy might have bladder problems but probably not, just like Ellie.
Isn't it Roxy who loves to eat? So does Ellie.

Ya know, we might have something here....Mine came from a hell hole called: Brylaur Puppies they are located in Maine

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I totally KNEW you'd get to the bottom of it in no time!

Btw, what-didja replace your carpet with? We wanted hardwood, but still not sure that's best for dogs - so we may go laminate in one room and then textured concrete in another. Oh my....

It is something called vinyl planking or vinyl-wood planking. It is vinyl (not wood) and comes in strips. It looks like real wood. The only thing is that the strips are peel and stick and that glue doesn't hold really well, so you have to use your own glue also. I like the look and it is so easy to clean (doesn't hold pee smell) but I really can't recommend it because it has the potential to get scratched easily and it seems to dent (from heavy objects). And even with your own glue added, the strips tend to wanna lift. It works well for us though and it is only 98 cents a square foot.