Live Birth / whelping

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Disasterous

Okay, I will be the first to admit that I'm not the smartest when it comes down to getting a pup at a certain age. When I got my Cocker Spaniel, he was 9 weeks old. He was the last of the litter and according to my mom she had to sign a plethora of puppy papers. We never had an issue with him eating, socialization, ect. He was, aside from a hook worm incident, a healthy and happy dog. When I got my Yorkie, he was a mere 8 weeks old. He, too, was the last of the litter, and my mom payed half price for him. We had zero issues with him, and he was a healthy little dog.

In my opinion, which does not have to affect yours, is that it's fine for the pup to leave it's mother at both eight and twelve weeks; however, it needs to be ready and at a good weight/size, and the breeder needs to be educated and have good judgment. Of course, if the pup is not ready to leave the mother, the breeder can keep it until it is.

Every one gets lucky. It is a sign of a bad breeder to let pups go before 12 weeks. The mother club of yorkies says 12 weeks and there is some good links posted in this thread you should read.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Wow, you really do have a chip on your shoulder....

I noticed that from the very beginning of the "debate". To the point of not even being open.

[OwnedByJezebel]

Originally Posted by Corfield

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training ISBN 0 903264 25 0

And a logical fallacy of an appeal to novelty won't do.

And what peer reviewed study dit Sameja base that opinion on?

Furthermore, please expound on the context of the word "ready" in stating his opinion. All puppies are ready at 8 weeks if you are only considering whether or not they will be eating on their own. But there is so much more to it than that. Staying with momma and litter until 12 weeks teaches them so many things that will make them better prepared for a new home as confident and well behaved pups.

There was a very interesting thread started here recently by pstinard about a study of various breeds and when they went through their initial fear stage. The different breeds all reached that stage at a different age. I don't think it's a stretch that they progress through other developmental stages at different rates as well.

[OwnedByJezebel]

Here is pstinard's thread: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...r-puppies.html

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Corfield

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training ISBN 0 903264 25 0

And a logical fallacy of an appeal to novelty won't do.

I know who this gentleman is because his world champion is Teddy's granddaddy.


Can you let me know where you are citing that reference from, please? I would like to have a look at his opinion. Is this the book:

OSMAN A SAMEJA The Yorkshire Terrier - Its Care and Training 1978 ?

37 years ago, the advice may have been different but I don't know that for sure.. I will have to look into it further to see why he made the statement i.e. it was the norm at the time.

Thanks!

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

I know who this gentleman is because his world champion is Teddy's granddaddy.


Can you let me know where you are citing that reference from, please? I would like to have a look at his opinion. Is this the book:

OSMAN A SAMEJA The Yorkshire Terrier - Its Care and Training 1978 ?

37 years ago, the advice may have been different but I don't know that for sure.. I will have to look into it further to see why he made the statement i.e. it was the norm at the time.

Thanks!

Great.....basing a current argument "for" or "against" research/clinical trials/etc, on advice substantiated by a professional opinion supported by mores from 37 years ago!! Not really on the "cutting edge of discovery"! Will be interested to see what YOUR digging into what formed his statement and if he even still considers that appropriate in todays world!

Congratulations to Teddy for his heritage!!! Congratulations to you for being part of it too!!!

[SirTeddykins]

Haha, I can take no credit. All I did was research for two years re: breeders who uphold breed standards, various lines and their origins and standards. All the other credit goes to his breeder and his mother!!
Anyway, I have e-mailed Mr Sameja and his sister (who is also involved in breeding and showing Ozmillion lines) for their opinion on this matter as follows:
Good afternoon,

I understand that you and your brother are responsible for the Ozmillion line from which my Yorkie is a descendent (thank you for all of your hard work!).

There is a current debate on a Yorkshire Terrier specific forum (www.yorkietalk.com) and (http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/my-yorkie-videos/282167-live-birth-whelping.html) regarding the ideal time a responsible breeder should consider taking pups from their mother.

Mr Sameja has been quoted as follows:

"Puppies are most usually ready to leave their mothers at eight weeks old"

Osman A Sameja - The Yorkshire Terrier It's Care and Training

Now, I understand that this statement was made within the aforementioned book which was published in 1978.

Therefore, what I would like to know is, would you and your brother still consider 8 weeks as old enough to leave the mother or 12 weeks as recommended by the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America and, until recently, the Kennel Club of England?

Our forum is trying to promote responsible breeding and pet ownership. Therefore, as you and your brother have contributed so much to our knowledge of the breed as well as betterment of the breed, I would sincerely appreciate your response.

In addition, please let me know if you are happy for me to share your views.

Thank you in advance and kind regards,

If/when I get a response, I will share!

[SirTeddykins]

With respect to the above, I have advised that the Kennel Club advised that reputable breeders only release Yorkshire Terriers from 12 weeks 'until recently' because it was explicitly stated and I can no longer find the statement on the site. That isn't to say that it is no longer there but I haven't been able to find it since they have updated their puppy finder webpage where I THINK it was before... I haven't looked for a YT puppy in almost 2 years now. One is enough for me!

[Yorkiemom1]

Imagine that!!! What a kick in the head that we actually have someone on YT that, not only "knows who that person is", they actually have "one of his dogs" so to speak, and can just go straight to the horses mouth with an email to clarify a statement made 37 years ago!!! Bet "no one" thought we had anyone on here that had such a wonderful connection, let alone "even knew" who the man was! (Doesn't surprise ME for even one minute....).

[SirTeddykins]

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...-want-eat.html


The sad reality of taking pups home too early...


Even for those that survive, the road is hard and long for the pup and the owner and completely unnecessary and avoidable.


I didn't want this thread to go unfinished since lots of people come here with questions and find unresolved threads.


I hope this helps someone and assists with explaining the rigid stance of those who support breeders who release puppies at 12 weeks and not before..

[gemy]

The thread will not go unfinished - hopefully you will get a response from the author. I also noted that Corfield is quite absent once you posted your email to the author!


And yes that is only one of many very distressing threads.


Most know me here as a Yorkie lover and owner of a GCH as well as being a large dog breeder.


When I got my Razzman at 12 wks old he was almost 3pounds - was crate trained - was leash trained and a very confident social lad indeed!. He was the smallest being I had the priviledge of raising. He came home Dec 30th and on the 31st - my breeder called me - upset that I had not called her! I said Razzle is just fine - ate a lot - peed and pooed and has had 3 walks so far! And I did not realize I needed to call you - btw I had already posted on an email to her some pics of Razz and Magicman. She just not had read them yet. Our breeder despite knowing me for years and knowing my CH obedience boy Magic reviewed my home and my preparedness for wee Razz. Safety places etc.


That is what a very good breeder does! Either in person or in some other way.


Even now - with our 10th anniversary picnic Magic the big boy is allowed to come but my darling young lass Dara will not be attending - of course Razzle will be. And I agree - Dara is too prey driven and too young in obedience -although I did stop her on a dime a couple of times last training session - she needs seasoning.


I idigress but I would not want a Yorkie at only 8wks old - especially one bred to the standard which would mean they are under 2lbs at that age! And as a large dog breeder I would let no pup leave my home unless they are healthy in all ways including temperament!