Having a hard time saying NO to a vet

[TatumsMom]

Originally Posted by chachi

Money isnt the only motivator with vets giving the rabies every year. It also can be because they dont think they are protected fully with the 3 yr. Thats what that vet told me. I still didnt want mine overvaccinated and also they are never around wild animals

Even after learning SO much about vaccinations on this site, I still have to consider the wild animals in our area..... which is why I feel that my vet in particular has my pups best interest in mind. We've been going to him and now also his associate for over 20 years. We've had many discussions and although I don't always fully agree with some things, we are usually able to talk it out and he will honestly listen.

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by BonBon

You've gotten good answers on your main question, so I'll just address the last two.

1) It is common for the dew claws (thumbs) to be removed on newborn pups. Dew claws can easily get caught up on fabric, etc. and hurt a dog's paw, so they're removed for safety reasons.

2) 14 weeks is too early to worry about undescended testicles, IMO. They still have a few months to drop before you need to be concerned.

It's nice to see such a concerned yorkie parent - great questions!

Bonny

Thank you for the answers. Whew- had me worried!

In certain areas I could see why people would give the rabies shots yearly. I hope that someday the duration of the effectiveness of rabies shot is SET and CONFIRMED so that the local laws can be changed to fit it, instead of this 1 or 3 year guessing game. People can titer for rabies but I hear that doesn't replace getting the actual shot.

"Actually in practice though, there aren't that many immediate and severe reactions at all. That's not to say these vaccines should be given on the same day, but that's why it doesn't bother most vets to do it."
I could understand this. That's why it's also hard to argue because they sound so confident, which makes me feel like I'm over reacting to possible side effects that happens so rarely. decisions, decisions!

Thank you all for great replies. Just like some of you I really like her as a vet (don't know if it's bc she was a friend's friend but was very thorough with my puppies and seemed to really genuinely care) and this is the reason why it makes it THAT MUCH HARDER to really argue my point.

[misslissa]

I would find a vet you can be comfortable with. I have two I have one vet that i go to for nutrition information And help with weight issues(what kind of yorkie eats a cup and a half of food a day stays just under 6 pounds and has tested negative for every parasite on the planet), and one i go to for vaccines and emergencies and routine stuff (like my cats neuter).

The first vet is great with the nutrition completely supports my home-cooking and always has helpful suggestions about exercise and food schedules, but she gives to many vaccines at once and she wont do blood tests before surgery says its a waste of money.
The second vet is great with vaccines only gives one at a time to dogs with a history of reactions and only two at a time to all others, but he is always pushing this crazy food i dont like and some i have never heard of, he tells me Gatsby eats so much and is anemic because i home cook for him. so its just a matter of finding what is right for you.

[yorkieusa]

My vets don't make the final decisions. I do!

[TatumsMom]

My vet has always recommended the titer testing if I don't feel comfortable giving the shots that he recommends. Keep in mind though that the testing is about as costly as the actual vaccination so you may have to turn around and give the shot anyway. Since we've never had any reactions to any, I go ahead and follow *most* of my vet's recommendations.

The key here is to trust your vet. That's always very important. If you can't have an honest open conversation with them, then it's best to find one that you can.

[anniez69]

I just got a chihuahua puppy and the breeder informed me that there is a 3 year rabies vaccination. I never knew this. She said that vets don't encourage it or let you know because its more money in their pocket if you have to bring them in every year for it.

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by TatumsMom

My vet has always recommended the titer testing if I don't feel comfortable giving the shots that he recommends. Keep in mind though that the testing is about as costly as the actual vaccination so you may have to turn around and give the shot anyway. Since we've never had any reactions to any, I go ahead and follow *most* of my vet's recommendations.

The key here is to trust your vet. That's always very important. If you can't have an honest open conversation with them, then it's best to find one that you can.

Great advice as well. I'm angry that she's a vet and she doesn't seem to know what's the SAFEST for my puppies, but I do want to trust her that it'll be okay because she probably had her share of experiences with vaccinations too. I don't know WHAT TYPES of things I should trust her with, though. If she said "yearly rabies shots", I would definitely say no bc it's not needed. But with waitng 6 months and giving 2~3 weeks in between shots, I'm not so sure since it's a fairly new thinking. I want to trust her because she does seem to genuinely care, and if she seems to know "for sure" then maybe everyting will turn out fine?

I think what I'm trying to say is that, I definitely do not want to change vets in between puppy shots and do not want to "stand alone" in enforcing my ways. I'd like a professional that backs my belief so that I don't seem like I'm testing her knowledge and that she's there for me in case things go wrong. (instead of the I told you so's). After the vaccinations are done, I'm def changing though bc I want someone that is more up-to-date and knowlegeable with recent findings.

[Ellie May]

If she laughs about your concerns, then you probably shouldn't trust her with anything. Changing in the middle of puppy shots is not a problem. Just get a copy of the record. Sounds unprofessional for her to refuse to respect her client's wishes.

Still dont' get the whole rabies shots needed more often is some areas thing. Will have to talk to Ellie's vet about it. That's like saying where distemper is a problem do the shots yearly when they have been proven effective for longer. Rabies is a 3 year vaccine in Michigan. If a dog gets bitten by a rabid animal, they would be considered protected with the vaccine. There may be more of a chance that a dog will get bitten by a rabid animal in other areas, but they still all have to be protected. So the dogs in MI are less protected because they have less of a chance of getting bit? Doesn't make sense to me. Less protection is not okay for any animal. The company wouldn't license the shot for 3 year if they thought it didn't work because legalities would be dragged into it.

[jp4m2]

Any vet that “insists” to improperly vaccinate my pets would no longer be my vet. In the past few decades the study of vaccinology and immunology has produced important information in regards to the duration, administration, adverse reactions and the potential for long term chronic diseases concerning vaccines and our pets. Ask your vet if he/she has heard of the research regarding this info. If he has heard of this research, he cannot dismiss your questions. Unless veterinarians make an effort to get this information by reading the literature from the researchers then he/she may be lacking in the knowledge to advise you in this area of treatment.

The practice of giving multiple vaccines at one visit is problematic and unsafe for multiple reasons:

Rabies vaccinations should be delayed until at least six months of age, if possible.

Giving combo vaccines (multi-valiant, polyvalent) and/or several shots at once increases the risk of adverse reactions as well as the risk that the vaccines will interfere with each other, resulting in neutralization or negation. (American Animal Hospital Association)

Virologists recognize that a gap of at least 3-4 weeks is desirable between giving one vaccine and then a different one, because if not so spaced the immune response to the second vaccine may be inadequate and not produce sufficient specific antibodies to give immunity. This means that the multiple components in the vaccines will interfere with each other and can elicit a poor response in producing the desired antibodies for adequate protection, in other words, a good immune response

According to the Center for Veterinary Biologics stated: Between 4/2004 through 3/2007 there were 10,000 reports concerning adverse reactions to the rabies vaccine, of those, 65% where for dogs. Taking into account that there is a serious underreporting of adverse reactions, amounting to only about 1%. If 65% of the 10,000 reported cases amounted to only 1% reported then the real figure for adverse reactions would be closer to 650,000 cases!
Adverse reactions: vomiting, facial swelling, injection site swelling or lump, lethargy, urticaria, injection site pain, pruritis, injection site hair loss, diarrhea, lameness, hypersensitivity, anaphylaxis, death.


The reaction rate increased significantly as body weight decreased. That is, small dogs were at greatest risk for a reaction. Risk for dogs weighing 11 pounds or less was 4 times greater than the risk for dogs weighing 99+ pounds. Medium-sized dogs also had increased risk over larger dogs. I have always been shocked that a Chihuahua puppy and an adult Great Dane are given the same dose shot: 1 mL. They get the same volume of virus or bacteria plus the same volume of adjuvants (boosting agents like aluminum), preservatives (like mercury), antibiotics, stabilizers and foreign tissue cultures (like fetal calf serum). All these ingredients are known to cause vaccine reactions.

Number of vaccines per office visit increases the risk for reactions. The risk significantly increased as the number of vaccines given at each visit increased. In little dogs (under 10 lbs.) each dose increased risks by 27%; in dogs weighing more, each dose increased risk by 12%.


“Rabies is the vaccine most associated with adverse reactions because it’s so potent,” says renowned veterinarian Dr. Jean Dodds. “We have a lot of bad reactions, including fatal ones. They usually occur within two to three weeks after vaccination, although they can appear up to 45 days later. Because the rabies vaccine is a neurogenic protein, meaning it affects the nervous system, what you will often see is seizures or seizure-like disorders like stumbling, ataxia, dementia, and some demyelination, where the animals become wobbly and don’t have proper motor skills. You can also have an autoimmune-like destruction of tissues, skin, blood, joints, the liver or kidneys.” Dr. Dodds adds that animals already ill with immune-related diseases such as cancer can be even more negatively affected. “Often, this is the last thing that causes the animal’s demise.”


Until Dr. Dodds completes her rabies challenge studies we won’t have any “official” documentation concerning the duration of immunity from the rabies vaccine, but “unofficially” Dr. Schultz feels it’s good for at least 7 years……Untimely it is you that must decide what is best for you and your loved one.

[kjc]

Sample arguement (copied from another thread):

I think most give them together. Big dogs can handle it. The only vets that give them separate are the ones that know specifically about Yorkies and the effects of vaccines on small breed dogs.

This is why, as a Yorkie owner, one must educate themselves and be a proactive advocate for one's Yorkie's health.

Many times techs prep the exam room prior to your entry. They look at your chart, see this dog needs X, Y and Z. They pull them from the fridge, mix them up and put them in the room for the vet to give to the dog.

When I enter the exam room, I scan it for anything, especially vaccines. If I see vials with needles, I stop the vet before the exam and say 'What's that?'
The vet says 'Oh Just the vaccines.'
I say' Okay, we'll start there. What are they? Specifically? Let me see them. (and I read the labels) If I see something I don't understand, I ask about it then and there.
'What's this? Lepto? My dog doesn't get Lepto. Or Lymes. Or corona. No flu shot, no Giardia vac, no dental vac, no new vacs'
Vet says 'Well, we've seen 3 cases already this year.'
I say, 'And how many dogs have you seen without it this year? 10,000? 20,000? I am not risking my dog's life for those odds.'

ME: 'I want DHPP today.' And they better show me a vial that says DHPP and nothing else on it. Not
Vet: 'Oh we've run out of that, we're giving DHPPLCv instead.'
Me: 'No, you're not. I'll come back when you get the DHPP in.'

Me, again: 'What's in that 2nd vial? Rabies vac?'
Vet: 'Yes'
Me: 'NO. Not today. I'll be back in one month for the Rabies. Please remove it from this room. Thankyou.'
Vet: 'But it's already prepared.'
Me: 'I don't care. Give it to somebody else.'
Then the Vet starts the exam.

Not to be anal or anything, but many vets will try to sell vaccines. They make money on them. You must learn to say No. You need to protect your pup against this kind of unnecessary vetting.


Hope this helps... If not, find a new vet. Giving the vaccines 4 weeks apart allows each one to do a better job. Given together, the challenge is too much for these little dogs, they can't produce the desired protection. They still are protected, but when given separately, they develop a stronger immunity to each of the diseases that they are being vaccinated against.

[ChocoMilk]

Ellie May: I definitely agree with you. I think it's because nothing has been "proven" yet on how long it actually lasts that they are able to enforce the vaccinations on a yearly basis. The local laws/vets/researchers.. they need to hurry up and come to an agreement on what is a reasonable amount.

jp4m2: thanks so much for the article. You know what, I'm just going to take this and say this is what I've found online and I'll postpone the rabies shot til llater. I was actually going to "trust" her bc I didn't want to offend her in any way (again, she's a friend's friend so I feel bad) but now that I re-read the article, there's no way I'm giving the shot to my little ones.

kjc: hahaha I literally LOL-ed reading your scenarios. I wish I could be like you! I will make sure though, that she doesn't try to influence me or confuse me into getting the rabies shot. Regarding the time interval, I think their second shot was in 3 weeks, and now their 3rd shot will be in 5 weeks bc of my schedule. Am I messing it up? The vet says it's okay

[ChocoMilk]

oh btw, did anyone get bordatella? I know it's not recommended according to Dr. Dodds article, but I will be taking mine to puppy classes/grooming and so I decided to get it. And were we not suppose to get it at the same time as their 2nd vaccine?

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by chachi

Money isnt the only motivator with vets giving the rabies every year. It also can be because they dont think they are protected fully with the 3 yr. Thats what that vet told me. I still didnt want mine overvaccinated and also they are never around wild animals

It's also important to note that even if you ultimately decide to go with the 3 year plan, the pup still needs the first vaccine followed by another one a year later in order to be fully immunized.

As for wild animals, we do have a lot of those in my area, but I'm more concerned about other dog owners who aren't responsible about immunizing their pets.

[LilMissy]

Originally Posted by yorkieusa

My vets don't make the final decisions. I do!

My girls have never, and will never get the Rabies Vacc. My Vet recommended they get it, I politely declined. She never said another word about it. Fortunately, it isn't "the law" here. PHEW! But even if it were, I think that I'd take my chances.

[Deuce]

"Rabies vaccinations should be delayed until at least six months of age, if possible."

When I took Rizzo in for his neuter my vet wanted to re-vaccinate him for rabies because he recieved the 3yr one when he was about 16 weeks old. I told her no, because I'm leaving this country next September and most likely he'll need another rabies vaccination for entry into whichever country I'm going next. She kept trying to push, saying that she doesn't think it was effective and he really needs to have it re-done, just in case he bites someone. I told her he won't bite anyone, nor is he exposed to rabies infected creatures around the house and that I won't be re-vaccinating him until I need to in order to leave.
All in all, it is your decision not your vets what happens to your pet.