liver shunt in small mini poodle - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Cariel · 11-10-2008, 09:27 PM

you all seem to have more answers about liver problems...so hence a poodle person in your midst. hope that is okay. i have been breeding mini poodles for 20 years but ow have a small 8 mo. old who is only 8 lbs. my vet has done blood test and says my pup, Hope, has elevated liver results. we have had an ultra sound...no shunt so they think she has mvd. she hates eating the l/d....am trying to find a better diet for her and also some advice on how to be sure she really has liver problems. other test i can do for her? no history in her family of liver problems. this is all so new and different. HELP

Ladymom · 11-10-2008, 09:35 PM

Welcome to YT! I love Poodles!

We have a thread going right now with lots of information on liver disease:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...r-disease.html

Cariel · 11-10-2008, 09:54 PM

thanks for sending me to the thread on liver disease. I need to get a copy of Hope's blood work. at least then I will have a good idea on whats going on.

Ellie May · 11-10-2008, 10:41 PM

Could you post the bile acids test results and blood panel results when you get them? Since Ladymom gave you that thread there is no use in retyping the diagnosis protocol.

As for diet and the L/D issues, there is another prescription food that is used. It is called Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14. It is in kibble form and probably about $3 a pound. It made my Yorkie very itchy though, so if you try it, you might want to only buy a small amount at first to see if the same thing will happen to your poodle... Moisture is very important for liver compromised dogs, so when feeding kibble it is a good idea to add equal parts water to make sure they are consumer enough. So if you feed 1/4 cup kibble, it wouldn't hurt to ate 1/4 cup water. To reduce the stress on the liver, these dogs should be fed several small meals a day instead of 1 or 2 larger ones. Three times a day may be okay but 4-6 is even better.

Is this pup having any symptoms?

RONLYNN · 11-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Well I have a Standard Poodle (and she is fine) as well as a yorkie who is 2 years old and is a Liver Shunt completed dog. She had her surgery 1 year ago. She eats the RC Hepatic food and really likes it. You should joing the liver shunt group on Yahoo...they are wonderful and know everything about this issue. Good luck!

SamiNFurbabies · 11-11-2008, 06:46 AM

I don't have an answer for you, but I just want to say that I'll keep your baby in my thoughts. I would get a bile acid test, like the others suggested and maybe see a specialist?

I love poodles--they are wonderful dogs.

Yorkieluv · 11-11-2008, 07:17 AM

Remember that u/s are not very effective as far as finding an actual shunt, so it's still possible that your baby may have a shunt, and they just didn't see it. A scintigraphy should be done if they truly suspect a shunt. What kinds of symptoms does your poodle exhibit? Picky eating? some lethargy? circling? drooling? pacing? restlessness? head pressing? vomiting? etc?
If you can, please post the results of all the bloodwork including bile acid test results so that we can help you further.

Ladymom · 11-11-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Remember that u/s are not very effective as far as finding an actual shunt, so it's still possible that your baby may have a shunt, and they just didn't see it. A scintigraphy should be done if they truly suspect a shunt. What kinds of symptoms does your poodle exhibit? Picky eating? some lethargy? circling? drooling? pacing? restlessness? head pressing? vomiting? etc?
If you can, please post the results of all the bloodwork including bile acid test results so that we can help you further.

Dr. Center estimates that ultrasounds can be as low as 60% reliable in diagnosing shunts. It's a shame that so many vets aren't up to date on the new protocol for diagnosing liver disease and waste time and money on outdated tests.

Was a Protein C test done? That is the best way to determine if you are dealing with a shunt or MVD.

Comparative Coagulation -- NYS Animal Health Diagnostic Center

Yorkieluv · 11-11-2008, 08:07 AM

As mentioned, Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 is a good alternative to the L/D. I would NOT feed L/D dry because it contains ethoxyquin...The L/D canned is okay though.
Like Ladymom says, you can have a protein C test done to help rule out shunt.

Cariel · 11-24-2008, 07:58 PM

I need to go get a copy of all blood work. She does have some vomiting, lethargy and some picky eating but that is mostly because she hates the Hill's l/d, both dry and canned. I'm having a terrible time getting her to eat enough of the food that they tell me she has to eat. On top of her problems, my vet sold his practice to VCA and they are beyound expensive. They wanted $185 to draw a tube of blood for me send off for a PRA DNA test. So I'm kind of a fish out of water on this without the usual team of vets I have trusted and relied on for so long. Will post blood work results as soon as I can.

Yorkieluv · 11-25-2008, 11:46 AM

Dogs with liver shunts are typically extremely picky eaters b/c they relate the sick feeling to the food. When they ingest protein it turns to ammonia and the liver is supposed to filter this, but when there's a liver shunt, it is NOT filtered and the ammonia enters the bloodstream. It's the equivalent of having poison in your bloodstream and it causes the sick feeling, occasional lethargy, very picky eating, and the symptoms can become much more serious.
Meats/poultry produce the most ammonia while vegetarian/dairy proteins produce less ammonia, but you still have to be careful even with veg. protein. Once you are able to show your baby that food isn't ALL evil, she may start eating again, but it's a slow process...I would highly recommend that you ask your vet for a prescription of Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 which I like better than the l/d. It is much more palatable for them from what I have seen.
Don't try to feed large meals b/c that will make her sick and picky all over again. Try to do at least 4 small meals per day. If you normally feed her 1/4 cup throughout the whole day, divide that 1/4 cup into 4 portions, and only feed her that amount at each feeding. That way, she doesn't overload on protein (even if it's vegetarian) and it doesn't cause her liver to go into overdrive.
You can always add water or mix in some seedless watermelon with the kibble to entice her to eat it.

Hopefully you can get her bloodwork results back soon.

11-10-2008, 09:27 PM	#1
Cariel YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 3	liver shunt in small mini poodle you all seem to have more answers about liver problems...so hence a poodle person in your midst. hope that is okay. i have been breeding mini poodles for 20 years but ow have a small 8 mo. old who is only 8 lbs. my vet has done blood test and says my pup, Hope, has elevated liver results. we have had an ultra sound...no shunt so they think she has mvd. she hates eating the l/d....am trying to find a better diet for her and also some advice on how to be sure she really has liver problems. other test i can do for her? no history in her family of liver problems. this is all so new and different. HELP

11-10-2008, 09:35 PM	#2
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	Welcome to YT! I love Poodles! We have a thread going right now with lots of information on liver disease: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...r-disease.html __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

11-10-2008, 09:54 PM	#3
Cariel YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 3	liver disease thanks for sending me to the thread on liver disease. I need to get a copy of Hope's blood work. at least then I will have a good idea on whats going on.

11-10-2008, 10:41 PM	#4
Ellie May And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 17,928	Could you post the bile acids test results and blood panel results when you get them? Since Ladymom gave you that thread there is no use in retyping the diagnosis protocol. As for diet and the L/D issues, there is another prescription food that is used. It is called Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14. It is in kibble form and probably about $3 a pound. It made my Yorkie very itchy though, so if you try it, you might want to only buy a small amount at first to see if the same thing will happen to your poodle... Moisture is very important for liver compromised dogs, so when feeding kibble it is a good idea to add equal parts water to make sure they are consumer enough. So if you feed 1/4 cup kibble, it wouldn't hurt to ate 1/4 cup water. To reduce the stress on the liver, these dogs should be fed several small meals a day instead of 1 or 2 larger ones. Three times a day may be okay but 4-6 is even better. Is this pup having any symptoms? __________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶

11-10-2008, 11:27 PM	#5
RONLYNN Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Manhattan Beach, CA Posts: 1,635	Well I have a Standard Poodle (and she is fine) as well as a yorkie who is 2 years old and is a Liver Shunt completed dog. She had her surgery 1 year ago. She eats the RC Hepatic food and really likes it. You should joing the liver shunt group on Yahoo...they are wonderful and know everything about this issue. Good luck! __________________ Ronda & Teddi PPU - Petite Pups United Member The PINK Club Member **

11-11-2008, 06:46 AM	#6
SamiNFurbabies YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: My House Posts: 517	I don't have an answer for you, but I just want to say that I'll keep your baby in my thoughts. I would get a bile acid test, like the others suggested and maybe see a specialist? I love poodles--they are wonderful dogs. __________________ Chrissy, Izze (Yorkshire Terrier),Molly & Suzie (Toy Poodles), Chachi (Chihuahua)

11-11-2008, 07:17 AM	#7
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 7,178	Remember that u/s are not very effective as far as finding an actual shunt, so it's still possible that your baby may have a shunt, and they just didn't see it. A scintigraphy should be done if they truly suspect a shunt. What kinds of symptoms does your poodle exhibit? Picky eating? some lethargy? circling? drooling? pacing? restlessness? head pressing? vomiting? etc? If you can, please post the results of all the bloodwork including bile acid test results so that we can help you further. __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

11-11-2008, 08:07 AM	#9
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 7,178	As mentioned, Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 is a good alternative to the L/D. I would NOT feed L/D dry because it contains ethoxyquin...The L/D canned is okay though. Like Ladymom says, you can have a protein C test done to help rule out shunt. __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

11-24-2008, 07:58 PM	#10
Cariel YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Coral Springs, Florida Posts: 3	I need to go get a copy of all blood work. She does have some vomiting, lethargy and some picky eating but that is mostly because she hates the Hill's l/d, both dry and canned. I'm having a terrible time getting her to eat enough of the food that they tell me she has to eat. On top of her problems, my vet sold his practice to VCA and they are beyound expensive. They wanted $185 to draw a tube of blood for me send off for a PRA DNA test. So I'm kind of a fish out of water on this without the usual team of vets I have trusted and relied on for so long. Will post blood work results as soon as I can.

11-25-2008, 11:46 AM	#11
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 7,178	Dogs with liver shunts are typically extremely picky eaters b/c they relate the sick feeling to the food. When they ingest protein it turns to ammonia and the liver is supposed to filter this, but when there's a liver shunt, it is NOT filtered and the ammonia enters the bloodstream. It's the equivalent of having poison in your bloodstream and it causes the sick feeling, occasional lethargy, very picky eating, and the symptoms can become much more serious. Meats/poultry produce the most ammonia while vegetarian/dairy proteins produce less ammonia, but you still have to be careful even with veg. protein. Once you are able to show your baby that food isn't ALL evil, she may start eating again, but it's a slow process...I would highly recommend that you ask your vet for a prescription of Royal Canin Hepatic LS 14 which I like better than the l/d. It is much more palatable for them from what I have seen. Don't try to feed large meals b/c that will make her sick and picky all over again. Try to do at least 4 small meals per day. If you normally feed her 1/4 cup throughout the whole day, divide that 1/4 cup into 4 portions, and only feed her that amount at each feeding. That way, she doesn't overload on protein (even if it's vegetarian) and it doesn't cause her liver to go into overdrive. You can always add water or mix in some seedless watermelon with the kibble to entice her to eat it. Hopefully you can get her bloodwork results back soon. __________________ Miko 's his Mommy