a breeder of Tiny yorkies

[HeatherHamptons]

I personally wouldn't know what to do with a dog that's so tiny. They are extremely cute, but that's not enough of a reason for me to get one. I wouldn't know how to care for one so brittle.

My babies are all a good size. Angel is 6 pounds, Prince is 9 pounds 2 ounces, yoda is 6 pounds and bandit is 5 pounds and 2 ounces (yoda and bandit are only 13 weeks).

[diva pup]

I recently spoke to my breeder who is spaying Mignons mother. Why? Because in 2 litters of different breeding she has produced tinies. That is NOT a desired trait in her breeding program, she breeds for show not for someone to have a tiny dog to pack around.
And as I said before she charged me the same price I would have paid for her normal sized littermate. IMO breeding for tinies is a crying shame. I do not care what the reasoning behind it is.
While tinies with babydoll faces are currently what are in "demand"as Kim pointed out I do not think you are going to find a show breeder breeding for the "standard" that gives a rats behind what the "demand" for pet puppies is right now.

[minniemn]

Villette, I had my hubby read this thread last night, I wanted to know if I was way off base yesterday... I didn't tell him anything I wrote, and the first thing out of his mouth was "these people are buying these tiny dogs for an outragous price, for a status thing", and he went on to say how he would never want a dog smaller than jaz because we don't have to worry as much about her, she can jump off the couch ect......

If a person really loves the breed that much to invest 4-10 grand... they would do their research first, and realize that they were getting taken advantage of... then they would buy a yorkie from a reputable person, and invest the other 3-9 grand into a shelter, rescue or something similar.

I can see how it would cost more to raise a tiny dog, if the breeder keeps them longer due to size ect... so it would cost more to buy them, but not that much more. I am keeping my pups until 12 weeks, so I have more shots to pay the vet for than the average person who sells their pups at 8 weeks, so does that give me the right to increase the pups price? by hundreds or thousands? I don't think so, why? because I am trying to do what is right for the pups, it is an expense of breeding, I am not in it for the money- I want to make sure that I have done the best I could for these pups, and feel that I did the new owners right also... and chances are their pup will not have issues that an 8 weeker may have.

And to give a "goody bag" with the pup is Great, BUT geez louise for 3 grand a person could buy two pups, and a ton of "goodies" and still have money left.

But you are going have people who will pay this price, and people who will supply them, just like pet stores, these people are not doing what is best for the breed, they are doing what is best for their pocket book. It is sad to me that it has to be a living, breathing, caring animal that is being used this way.

I better step out of the conversation also, since my posts were deleted also, there is a chance I could be banned for these posts, but I have had enough of the preach one way do another as long as it is good for me attitude. Using pets for profits also burns me... well I better stop there.

[minniemn]

Originally Posted by diva pup

I recently spoke to my breeder who is spaying Mignons mother. Why? Because in 2 litters of different breeding she has produced tinies. That is NOT a desired trait in her breeding program, she breeds for show not for someone to have a tiny dog to pack around.
And as I said before she charged me the same price I would have paid for her normal sized littermate. IMO breeding for tinies is a crying shame. I do not care what the reasoning behind it is.
While tinies with babydoll faces are currently what are in "demand"as Kim pointed out I do not think you are going to find a show breeder breeding for the "standard" that gives a rats behind what the "demand" for pet puppies is right now.

Exactly

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by minniemn

Villette, I had my hubby read this thread last night, I wanted to know if I was way off base yesterday... I didn't tell him anything I wrote, and the first thing out of his mouth was "these people are buying these tiny dogs for an outragous price, for a status thing", and he went on to say how he would never want a dog smaller than jaz because we don't have to worry as much about her, she can jump off the couch ect......

If a person really loves the breed that much to invest 4-10 grand... they would do their research first, and realize that they were getting taken advantage of... then they would buy a yorkie from a reputable person, and invest the other 3-9 grand into a shelter, rescue or something similar.

I can see how it would cost more to raise a tiny dog, if the breeder keeps them longer due to size ect... so it would cost more to buy them, but not that much more. I am keeping my pups until 12 weeks, so I have more shots to pay the vet for than the average person who sells their pups at 8 weeks, so does that give me the right to increase the pups price? by hundreds or thousands? I don't think so, why? because I am trying to do what is right for the pups, it is an expense of breeding, I am not in it for the money- I want to make sure that I have done the best I could for these pups, and feel that I did the new owners right also... and chances are their pup will not have issues that an 8 weeker may have.

And to give a "goody bag" with the pup is Great, BUT geez louise for 3 grand a person could buy two pups, and a ton of "goodies" and still have money left.

But you are going have people who will pay this price, and people who will supply them, just like pet stores, these people are not doing what is best for the breed, they are doing what is best for their pocket book. It is sad to me that it has to be a living, breathing, caring animal that is being used this way.

I better step out of the conversation also, since my posts were deleted also, there is a chance I could be banned for these posts, but I have had enough of the preach one way do another as long as it is good for me attitude. Using pets for profits also burns me... well I better stop there.

I totally agree with everything you said - your hubby was really great to read and offer an opinion.....Nothing you said should get deleted because it's ALL TRUE !

I see red also when I see someone saying it's perfectly acceptable to pay OUTRAGEOUS prices for small yorkies - It saddens me too that yorkies are now SO in fashion that people would even ASK that... let alone all the breeders jumping on the band wagon to breed smaller -

It's SCARY for the yorkies !

A REAL yorkie expert knows there is no reason for those kind of prices...UNLESS a breeder has that baby for a long time due to it's size or health problems.....then it's different -

You said it all perfectly and I'll leave it at that. Thank you !

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I was just wondering your rationale for this. I happen to agree and it is because I think they are healthier than "runts" and have less genetic problems as a rule because the reputable breeder would have been sure to eliminate any defects from the line.

Of course there is always the chance that you will get a disreputable breeder who doesn't "breed out" the defects.

I simply said If a breeder purposly buys her breeding dog/bitchs as tinies and has researched their backgrounds that indeed they come from tinies (if in search of a 2 lbs adult dog) I would buy from the tiny breeder if I must have a 2lb dog....where as this breeder can pretty much guarantee her stock that the weight will not exceed...

the runt breeder may think hers will be small but could have a late growth spurt, so why if its a runt would a breeder ask more money for the runt than the rest of the litter like Tanya did for her girl $4000 and her boy $950

Kim, defects as you call them come in all sizes, believe it or not there are some sturdy tinies out there not that im an advocate of small breeding them, mine rage from 3.5-5.5lbs (3.5 is the average runt) and I do not charge more for the RUNT! The runts are usually no less healthy that the rest of the litter where do you get your information the runt is less healthy and has more "defects"????

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

I simply said If a breeder purposly buys her breeding dog/bitchs as tinies and has researched their backgrounds that indeed they come from tinies (if in search of a 2 lbs adult dog) I would buy from the tiny breeder if I must have a 2lb dog....where as this breeder can pretty much guarantee her stock that the weight will not exceed...

the runt breeder may think hers will be small but could have a late growth spurt, so why if its a runt would a breeder ask more money for the runt than the rest of the litter like Tanya did for her girl $4000 and her boy $950

Kim, defects as you call them come in all sizes, believe it or not there are some sturdy tinies out there not that im an advocate of small breeding them, mine rage from 3.5-5.5lbs (3.5 is the average runt) and I do not charge more for the RUNT! The runts are usually no less healthy that the rest of the litter where do you get your information the runt is less healthy and has more "defects"????

There are breeders who have taken the time to breed small stock. They have bred into their dogs the gene that they will have small puppies. You have more a positive experience of that animal being small beacuse that is his genetics.

I have fallen into that area with some of my dogs- beautiful but are small 4 1/2 pounds as adults or smaller and have been bred that way for 4/5 generations. I do not breed a gal under 4 1/2 pounds. That is one of the reasons I was looking for a male stud to bring my size up.

There is a difference in my mind as to a runt and a unhealthy small puppy. The runt can be small at birth beacause it was not conceived the same time as the other puppies-given time and the propper care once here it can end up being the largest puppy as an adult. The same thing can happen that you have a large puppy that will hit a certain period and stop growing and be the little one out of a litter as an adult. You should keep record of all these things .

I have priced a tiny baby higher then other pupppies to weed out potential buyers at times. Got to know the client and then placed the puppy with them at a reduced price. I try and price the babies by the qaulity that I grade them.

Unhealthy babies come in all shapes and sizes.

[centralnewyorki]

Well, Oliver, the most I can say for the woman who called you on your puppies is- at least she was honest! (Please note my sarcasm- Believe me, I'm in no way defending a woman who wants to purchase a living being to "impress" her friends!)

I would want to pay a good, honest breeder enough to cover the costs of raising the puppies and enough to compensate them for their efforts. Being a good, serious breeder takes a lot of time and money to research lines, find and buy good breeding stock, etc. This being said, I'm not interested in helping to make a breeder a millionaire by paying $5,000-$10,000 for a single yorkie. I've read so many posts here about people buying yorkies recently for 3 or 4 times what they paid for a yorkie 5 or 10 years ago. Granted inflation has a bit to do with this, but it's getting a little out of hand. For a yorkie that costs upwards of $2,500, I would want to see some sort of details on the price. If a breeder can honestly defend a $5,000 bill due to keeping the pup longer (and by longer, I mean months, not weeks), unanticipated surgery, etc, then I would consider that a fair price. I would hate to have a breeder go way into the red and consider cutting costs on their next litter. (Although I guess that wouldn't be a very reputible breeder then.) I've loved yorkies for years, but just recently got my first. I realize I purchase Olivia at the height of the yorkie craze, but she is not an impulse purchase by any means. I don't want to deal with a breeder that jacks up the prices for tinies (or yorkies in general) because they're in demand. I want to deal with the breeder that had bred for years and charges based on expertise and care. There are 3 or 4 breeders on YT that I have a lot of faith in. I would have no problem paying more for their yorkies to ensure that they can afford to continue to breed yorkies because I believe that they have the dogs' best interest in mind- not their bank account.

minniemn- thank you for your post. I absolutely agree.

feminvstr- I'm entering this post a bit late, but there is no way I would purchase a yorkie without a contract. The vet can say that a dog is healthy today and the pup could not wake up tomorrow. If this particular breeder is so sure of the health of her dogs, she would offer a guarentee. I certainly hope this man would consider getting a yorkie at a later date as a belated gift before entering into this situation. I would much rather wait a week or a month or two to ensure that a puppy will be around until my next birthday.

[JCarlson2004]

Before I got my tiny Katie (who is 2.6 lbs full grown), I did a ton of research. Brittany (Brittie 123) helped me A LOT with this because of her experience with Mia. Katie was an "accidental" tiny. She was not breed purposely to be tiny. Her breeder kept her until she was 5 months old (she was only 14 ounces) and then I was allowed to take her home. So far (thank God) she has had NO health problems whatsoever. And she's energetic and playful and just an all around happy, sweet, little princess. The breeder was originally going to charge $3,500 for Katie but she sold her to me for ONLY $1,200 - which I think is a great price. I fell in love with Katie the minute I saw her and probably would have paid the $3,500 price for her but the breeder gave me a discount because (1) she knew me personally (2) this was my second dog and (3) because she knew Katie would be in good hands with me. She was afraid to sell Katie because she didn't want to sell her to someone she didn't know - she was afraid for Katie's well being and health.

I personally think any dog under 5 lbs is VERY small. My Codie is 8 lbs and (to me) he's a tiny little love bug with his sexy legs and cute butt. I don't think it's right to INTENTIONALLY breed for tinies. If you happen to have a tiny ONCE IN A WHILE, that is natural and just "nature taking its course." But to intentionally breed females under 5 lbs is just plain wrong. I think it's cruel and dangerous to subject a tiny little 3 lb dog to a pregnancy.

[centralnewyorki]

Originally Posted by JCarlson2004

But to intentionally breed females under 5 lbs is just plain wrong. I think it's cruel and dangerous to subject a tiny little 3 lb dog to a pregnancy.

I couldn't agree with you more!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

There are breeders who have taken the time to breed small stock. They have bred into their dogs the gene that they will have small puppies. You have more a positive experience of that animal being small beacuse that is his genetics.

I have fallen into that area with some of my dogs- beautiful but are small 4 1/2 pounds as adults or smaller and have been bred that way for 4/5 generations. I do not breed a gal under 4 1/2 pounds. That is one of the reasons I was looking for a male stud to bring my size up.

There is a difference in my mind as to a runt and a unhealthy small puppy. The runt can be small at birth beacause it was not conceived the same time as the other puppies-given time and the propper care once here it can end up being the largest puppy as an adult. The same thing can happen that you have a large puppy that will hit a certain period and stop growing and be the little one out of a litter as an adult. You should keep record of all these things .

I have priced a tiny baby higher then other pupppies to weed out potential buyers at times. Got to know the client and then placed the puppy with them at a reduced price. I try and price the babies by the qaulity that I grade them.

Unhealthy babies come in all shapes and sizes.

This is what I was trying to say. Runts in a litter which are not "bred on purpose to be tiny" are usually like premature babies and the potential for health problems due to the prematurity is what I was referring to.

Whereas, if a breeder has bred the small size into their line genetically and purposefully, those babies are not preeemies. They are just naturally smaller.

I think this may be where the misconception has occurred that tinies have more health problems than average size yorkies. I have purchased 4 yorkies recently and, with the exception of one hypoglycemia attack and an inquinal herneia in one which corrected itself without surgery, my dogs are all very healthy and not "brittle" at all. They are not "extreme tinies" but rather will all be between 3 and 4 lbs as adults.

Also there was only one person who talked of breeding "smaller females" on this thread and she know longer does it, ( I didn't feel it was my place to jump all over her for her post) so I don't think anyone condones that. When most of us discuss breeding "for" a smaller puppy we are talking about regular size females bred with tiny males who have the small gene bred into them for several generations.

And yes, as Villette likes to point out quite often, I have only owned yorkies for a short time, but I have been a dog lover all my life as well as a yorkie fancier (had to wait til the kids were older to get one but encouraged severa friends to get one before that) and I have obedience trained since I was a child, I volunteer at the local Humane Society and I have educated myself. I do my research and in my search for my dogs I have spoken to many many breeders as well as read everything on here, and on several other forums for the last 6 months. My dogs are also service dogs and I have read almost every book that has been written on the yorkshire terrier. When I become obsessed with something I soak up the information and become as knowledgeable as I can about it as quickly as I can. I think most of the members on here recognize this about me. I back up my information with reliable sources.

I did not pay $5000 for any of my dogs, but I would have gladly paid that for Ava or Princess Chai had that been what the breeder was asking, but I did pay what most here would consider a lot, and I was not "taken advantage of" or "gouged" in the process. Each of my dogs was priced fairly, and in fact, I feel they are worth more. I have been offered more for both Ava and Chai, but, or course, they are my babies and are not for sale. I looked at many lesser priced dogs and very quickly figured out what I wanted which is hard to come by so I had to pay a little bove average to get what I wnated but I am offended that someone would think just because I paid a lot that I was "being stupid".I did it with my eyes wide open and with full knowledge of what the average yorkie costs in this country.

[StewiesMom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

In my opinion 3 and 4 lbs is a tiny so it is tiny enough for most people. Anything under 5 lbs is a tiny in my opinion. All four of the yorkies I have purchased recently will be between 3 and 4 lbs as adults.

The "extreme tinies" (2-3 lbs full grown) are very rare and can command $5000-10,000 depending on other factors but I am not sure I would want one that small because I would be a basket case worrting about it 24/7! Now, if you handed me one I wouldn't turn it down, mind you!!

Why do you label people with money as being "people who will think of their dog as an accessory"? If I had to generalize, which I hate to do, I think it is just the opposite. People with a ton of money don't have to impress anyone. It is people who are trying to "look like they have a ton of money" or impress others who will be more likely to think of their dog as an accessory. JMHO.

All toy dogs bred to their respective standards are tiny. "Extreme tinies" is a stupid term IMO and I refuse to use it. I don't think they are "very rare". What they are is ruining the breed standard. NO ONE should purposely breed for very tiny dogs no matter what the hell the public wants or what's in "demand". Demand is for inanimate objects.

Yes, people with money, especially celebrities who can afford these tiny "pocket pooches" are more likely to treat their dog as an accessory IMO. Have you seen Nicole Ritchie's "teacup" Pomeranian and the way she treats it? Have you seen some of the people in downtown Chicago with dogs they carry around during lunchtime to Bloomingdales and then dispose of them to their full-time caretakers? I have. They're rich and they only want the dog when it is convenient for them -- or when they want attention. When they don't want the attention the dog provides, they dump them. Its sad. Check out Britney's dogs. Where are they when she's on tour?

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by StewiesMom

All toy dogs bred to their respective standards are tiny. "Extreme tinies" is a stupid term IMO and I refuse to use it. I don't think they are "very rare". What they are is ruining the breed standard. NO ONE should purposely breed for very tiny dogs no matter what the hell the public wants or what's in "demand". Demand is for inanimate objects.

Yes, people with money, especially celebrities who can afford these tiny "pocket pooches" are more likely to treat their dog as an accessory IMO. Have you seen Nicole Ritchie's "teacup" Pomeranian and the way she treats it? Have you seen some of the people in downtown Chicago with dogs they carry around during lunchtime to Bloomingdales and then dispose of them to their full-time caretakers? I have. They're rich and they only want the dog when it is convenient for them -- or when they want attention. When they don't want the attention the dog provides, they dump them. Its sad. Check out Britney's dogs. Where are they when she's on tour?

I agree Kristy. It's heartbreaking. The only person I've ever read about that DOES take her dog with her pretty much everywhere is Jessica Simpson. I read about it on MSN and Netscape. It was a while ago but the article said she refuses to leave her dog Daisy, who is a Maltepoo (Maltese/Poodle), at home. But she is just 1 person. There are tons of other celebs who leave their dogs with "nannies" and those nannies, in my opinion, are the people that the dog looks to at it's master and mama. I take my dogs just about everywhere with me on the weekend. The only place I don't take them is to the movies (unless I can sneak them in but I got caught a few times hee hee) and to restaurants (unless it's an outdoor cafe type). But other than that they come EVERYWHERE with me and that's how I like it. They're my kids.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by StewiesMom

All toy dogs bred to their respective standards are tiny. "Extreme tinies" is a stupid term IMO and I refuse to use it. I don't think they are "very rare". What they are is ruining the breed standard. NO ONE should purposely breed for very tiny dogs no matter what the hell the public wants or what's in "demand". Demand is for inanimate objects.

Yes, people with money, especially celebrities who can afford these tiny "pocket pooches" are more likely to treat their dog as an accessory IMO. Have you seen Nicole Ritchie's "teacup" Pomeranian and the way she treats it? Have you seen some of the people in downtown Chicago with dogs they carry around during lunchtime to Bloomingdales and then dispose of them to their full-time caretakers? I have. They're rich and they only want the dog when it is convenient for them -- or when they want attention. When they don't want the attention the dog provides, they dump them. Its sad. Check out Britney's dogs. Where are they when she's on tour?

Again, the "breed standard" is simply a set of arbitrary rules developed by the people who show. I totally disagree with cosmetic surgery which they condone like tail docking! I do not agree with or follow the breed standard as it is not the LAW, it is just for hobbyists who have some idea of what their "perfect" yorkie is. I don't think there is anything wrong scientifically or medically with breeding toy breeds smalller if it is done responsibly. I love mixed breeds and all americans as much as I love so called purebreds (all breeds are"mixed" imo because they were derived from mixing different breeds usually).

I don't follow the celebrities, but I think it is great that they have a caregiver to care for the dog when they are working instead of having to leave it home alone. They should, they can afford it.

Where are you getting your information about how Nicole Richey and Britney Spears treat their dogs? Do you not think they love them as much as we love ours? It is rare to see a picture of Paris Hilton without hers, but she truly loves hers and takes exceptional care of her from what I can see.

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

It is rare to see a picture of Paris Hilton without hers, but she truly loves hers and takes exceptional care of her from what I can see.

When I mentioned Jessica Simpson I forgot to list Paris Hilton too because I think she loves her dogs. She just purchased a second Chi and from what I read, she owns a lot of other pets like cats and big dogs and fish and birds, etc. She has a full-time staff to take care of them when she cannot be there. She also donates a lot of money to animal shelters. So she sounds like an animal lover. But then again, I don't know her personally. This is just an assumption based on what I've heard and read.