Hi to everyone! From a new Yorkie Breeder - YorkieTalk.com Forums

LillyH · 08-26-2007, 04:10 AM

Hi everyone!

(newbie here)
I own 4 Yorkies. 2 boys & 2 girls.
Lil-Man 6.5 lbs. Lilly 3.75 lbs. Tucker 4 lbs. & Dixie 5.5 lbs. All ranging from 1-3.5 yrs. None are related nor registered, but 3 are registerable. Around here in BC quite a few breeders sell puppies without papers... then refund partial payment with proof of spay or nuetre. So there are a whole lot of un-papered puppies in our area. Anyhow...

My youngest little girl Lilly is due to have puppies in 1-4 more days (Aug 27-30ish)
We went for our x-rays a couple of days ago and saw she is expecting 2 little babes.
This is our first litter ever, so very excited & scared all at the same time. Lilly started out at 3 lbs 11 oz. and is now 5 lbs 5 oz.
This was an oops breeding as she had only just turned 11 months when it took place... she in a diaper, and he wearing his belly band 24/7 for over 3 weeks, yet somehow someway they obviusly managed.

This method has worked great every other time

For over 2 weeks I just figured my last deworming didn't work... thank god I decided to hold off before deworming her again!

I established she was pregnant when I did her monthly weigh in and discovered she had all of the sudden gained nearly a whole pound in the last month.

That was on August 1st.
Thank goodness for a late first heat is all I can say! I can't imagine her going through this at an earlier age. Obviously I would have rather waited until at least her 2nd or maybe even her 3rd heat... and I was waiting to see if she would at least reach the 4lb mark before deciding if she was ok to breed to my little 4lb male to start with. Guess I'll find out now wether I like it or not

I'm sure I'll be on here lot's in the next few days with a million questions, hope everyone has loads of patients for me

Tina :-)

LunasMomma · 08-26-2007, 05:02 AM

I'd have Lilly spayed after this litter, she's WAY too small to be breeding. Good luck with the puppies, I hope that the delivery goes smoothly.

Ladyhawk · 08-26-2007, 06:51 AM

Bless her heart, she's so small and so young to be a mommy. I do hope that everything goes well. Do you have a breeder friendly vet who will be standing by? Have you measured her from anus to vulva and across the pelvis to see if she's large enough to free whelp? I'd be ready for a c-section just in case, better safe than sorry.

Yorkiekids · 08-26-2007, 07:09 AM

I hope all goes well. You may be able to get a mentor in the Breeders section.

tegamom1 · 08-26-2007, 08:32 AM

The only sure way to prevent a breeding is spay or keep them completely seperated. I too hope she comes through this without too much difficulty. Like others have said, to young and definetly too small for breeding. Keep your vet on call and good luck.

PrestigeousYT · 08-26-2007, 08:39 AM

I hope all comes out OK for Lillys sake, she is very small girl and being young on top of it. WOW scary for her.
I guess you know now that belly bands and panties are for diaper reasons only and not a means for protecting from unwanted breedings.
It would be better if she had more than two pups because usually they would be smaller birthweights.
I do hope you have a wonderful vet who you can depend on for Lilly and a vet who will help guide you thru the process.
Have you done any research on the whelping issues what is normal and what is a red flag to alert you of a problem etc?

Again best of luck

Deana

LillyH · 08-26-2007, 10:37 AM

Thank you eveyone. Yes, I've been researching like mad for the last couple of weeks.
I do in fact have a very good vet who's well versed on the toy breeds and on standby. I even have home phone numbers to help speed things up if need be. Yes, I of course did my homewark & checked out a few before picking the perfect vet. This one deals with 2 seperate Chihuahua breeders as well as a few other tiny breeders. I too was extremely concearned with the age & size of her. The vet feels my fears are unwarented and that she should be just fine to free whelp. Her vulva to anus & horns are far enough apart now for puppies to pass, and said it's actually a good thing she's on the younger side at her size, because her bones are still soft enough they can spread easier just in case. However at slightly over a year old the concearns of her not being mature enough to properly care for the puppies is also no big concearn at this point either. The only concearn the vet has mentioned is for the usual complications.
I have no idea why any one would automatically assume I should spay her strickly based on her size

Especially since the vet feels she's fine & not once mentioned it. Wouldn't a sane person wait to see how this whelping goes before assuming she absolutley needs spaying? I wonder why in the world someone would think to suggest putting this poor little girl through a surgery on top of delivering if it's not absolutely needed? Since she is only a year old she still may have a bit of growing left to do yet, and just might have a good growth spirt left in her. Her parents are both 5 lbs so it stands to reason she may get a bit bigger yet.
I too wish there were at least one more puppy... it would certainly make me feel better about the situation too. More/smaller puppies is always better.
I should mention that I may be new to the breeding thing myself, but not new to whelping. I have a retired Shih-tzu breeder (vg friend) & a well renowned English Mastiff breeder freind as well, both calling daily to see how we are progressing & offering help if I need it. I've witnessed c-sections & helped raise many puppies over the years. Every 2 hour feeding, moist swipes to the rear and all. I've just never taken on the breeding task on my own before.
Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their sincere & empathetic ears. It's not something that was expcted, and I truly don't feel my preventative methods were all so stupid... it's worked fine through many heats, it's just unfortunate that something went wrong this particular time. I was using a pampers diaper with elastic legs & waste band at the time... not panties. I don't believe in caging my dogs & they have free access to my entire home & sleep with me every night. Completely shutting one away would be cruel in my opinion. Not that this situation is any better... but it's done now & we are dealing with it the best way possible. From this point on (providing Lilly is ok) I won't have these huge breeding concearns. My other female is due to go into her 3rd heat soon & I intend on allowing her to mate with my male. If Lilly does in fact have problems delivering on her own, I will decide a that time wether or not to spay her once her puppies are near ready to find new homes.
Thanks again and I look forward to chatting & learning from all of you

Tina

topknot · 08-26-2007, 11:03 AM

Best of luck to you and your girl through all this. And we know it was an accident. Only based on her weight before PG and age - she may get to 4.5 pounds at maturity. That is still so small. How large was the male? I tried to read back and find. Was he 4 pounds? You have to also take a look at the grandparents as well not just the sire. I just wanted to wish you luck and please keep us informed on how it all turns out. No one means to be harsh. We have just heard so many sad stories on YT with the small girls. If you need us - don't hesitate to ask when her time comes.
T.

3CrazyYorkies · 08-26-2007, 11:25 AM

Welcome to the group Lillyh -- I am from BC too where are you located. I'm sure when the time comes if you require assistance there will be lots of people here who can help you out!!

Ladyhawk · 08-26-2007, 11:36 AM

I'm glad you've found a good vet who will be there for you day or night. It's so important because as we all know they love to give birth in the middle of the night. I'm just curious as to how your going to keep the next two from tying up 2 or 3 times a day if you don't crate them or confine them in some way. Connor about drives me nuts when one of the gals are in standing heat. He'll cry all night long, I can't imagine him and a horny gal sleeping in my bed.

Sugar's Mom · 08-26-2007, 11:44 AM

You said,"I have no idea why any one would automatically assume I should spay her strickly based on her size Especially since the vet feels she's fine & not once mentioned it. Wouldn't a sane person wait to see how this whelping goes before assuming she absolutley needs spaying?"

it's because most of the reputable breeders on here would NEVER breed a girl less than five pounds. but you said it was accidental and I have had that happen myself. Not an accident but very poor judgement on my part. That girl only had two babies, went into labor, uterus almost ruptured before i got her to the vet. She was in surgery quickly, one baby nearly died, the other one struggled and you can bet your britches, my girl was spayed during the C-section. As far as yours having a lot of growing to do, yorkies are usually done at seven or eight months old altho they can grow a few months longer. Most don't. So don't be offended by the suggestion to have her spayed. it would be a very wise thing on your part to have done. i hope your mama will be alright. it sounds as if you have a very good vet.

lisatodd · 08-26-2007, 02:51 PM

Lilly 3.75 lbs... wow she is very little. i hope she does well.

YorkieRose · 08-26-2007, 04:52 PM

Welcome to YT..you have come to a forum full of very passionate people when it comes to the breed., so please be patient with us.

Size is only one factor when breeding..and the smaller ones tend to need more help..sections, shots, forcep delivery etc...but that is not where it stops. Bitches in the 3 and 4 pound range do not always have the reserves to care for a nursing litter very long..they can go down hill quite fast. They lose weight and it can cause lingering health concerns. It is hard enough for a 5/6 pounder to nurse a litter of 4 or 5 for 4 weeks and not be stressful on her body.

Vets are not the, end all be all, when it comes to breeding...you would think going to Med school would make them "breeding smart"..not always unless they actually do it and watch the effects on the smaller bitches..
All will no doubt turn out fine since you working closely with your vet.. you are preparing for the litter and will help your bitch during and after...best wishes

cj125 · 08-26-2007, 05:26 PM

Welcome to YorkieTalk LillyH!

Good Luck with your upcoming litter. Hope they're healthy and happy babies!

As far a size and weight on our Yorkies... it's my opinion that every one is different and only if you know the sizes of the parents & grandparents on both sides will you be able to estimate their size.

My Mia grew quite a bit after in her 8th month. Infact, she hasn't gained weight but grew an inch in her chest in the last 3-4 months. Oh by the way - she's 18 months old! She's a late bloomer.

Now, my Max is very close to Mia's measurements but he weighs less and he's only 4 1/2 months old!

Your girl may very well grow more

Either way - good luck and hope to see you around!

LillyH · 08-26-2007, 07:06 PM

Thank you to each and all of you. I should have maybe written Lilly's size in a different manner. Her exact weight before pregnancy was 3 lbs 11 oz. I just wrote it as 3.75 to keep it simple... actually meaning 3 & 3/4 lbs. I realise now that the way I wrote it, it appears that she is 3 lbs 7 1/2 ounces & that's just not so. Sorry for any confusion.
I'm sure most will still consider her extremely tiny, but at least not quite as tiny as I'm sure you may have been thinking.
Yes cj125, I agree completely that she still may grow a bit yet. Her parents are both in the 5-5.5 lbs area, and same wih her grandparents. My male I have no idea of his grandparents, but his Dad is 3.5 lbs, and his Mom is just over 4 lbs. It would take some doing to find out grandparents exact weights. However he was exactly 4 lbs 3 oz when he and Lilly mated.

I've been temperature taking 3-4times a day for the last week & weighing her every morning just to keep on top of it all. So far no real signs of labour yet. Her temp just keeps fluctuating up & down between 100.1 & 99.3. She did start nesting in her whelping box lastnight for the first time, so we know the time is drawing near.

Yes, my vet seems quite compitent, I just wish the office was closer than the 20+ min drive. I've made sure to keep my car gassed up just in case.
Its sad because I have a vet office less than 5 minutes up the road, but they really don't seem quite as knowledgable when it comes to the tiny dogs. Not to mention they wanted over $150 for an x-ray, and require an automatic $1000 deposit up front right away if there is even a remote chance of a c-section needed. I found that a bit rude & abnoxious myself... since they hadn't even seen my girl yet.

Speaking of whelping boxes... I built mine out of a large tote & put the dowels in at 2" depth & height like suggested, but I'm wondering if the side rails are really so important? I know the purpose is to prevent Mama from squishing or suffocating the puppies, but at her size should I really be so concearned? I only ask because it seems like she is really put off by them & is more hesitant to stay in there now that I put them in. She absolutely loved it before that. I went a little over board with curtains that slide completely out of the way hanging over the doorway... but it looks so much like a cozy little home & so much cuter now

Thanks again to all of you :-)
Tina

08-26-2007, 04:10 AM	#1
LillyH Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 73	Hi to everyone! From a new Yorkie Breeder Hi everyone! (newbie here) I own 4 Yorkies. 2 boys & 2 girls. Lil-Man 6.5 lbs. Lilly 3.75 lbs. Tucker 4 lbs. & Dixie 5.5 lbs. All ranging from 1-3.5 yrs. None are related nor registered, but 3 are registerable. Around here in BC quite a few breeders sell puppies without papers... then refund partial payment with proof of spay or nuetre. So there are a whole lot of un-papered puppies in our area. Anyhow... My youngest little girl Lilly is due to have puppies in 1-4 more days (Aug 27-30ish) We went for our x-rays a couple of days ago and saw she is expecting 2 little babes. This is our first litter ever, so very excited & scared all at the same time. Lilly started out at 3 lbs 11 oz. and is now 5 lbs 5 oz. This was an oops breeding as she had only just turned 11 months when it took place... she in a diaper, and he wearing his belly band 24/7 for over 3 weeks, yet somehow someway they obviusly managed. This method has worked great every other time For over 2 weeks I just figured my last deworming didn't work... thank god I decided to hold off before deworming her again! I established she was pregnant when I did her monthly weigh in and discovered she had all of the sudden gained nearly a whole pound in the last month. That was on August 1st. Thank goodness for a late first heat is all I can say! I can't imagine her going through this at an earlier age. Obviously I would have rather waited until at least her 2nd or maybe even her 3rd heat... and I was waiting to see if she would at least reach the 4lb mark before deciding if she was ok to breed to my little 4lb male to start with. Guess I'll find out now wether I like it or not I'm sure I'll be on here lot's in the next few days with a million questions, hope everyone has loads of patients for me Tina :-)

08-26-2007, 05:02 AM	#2
LunasMomma Izzy's Momma Too! Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stuart, Florida Posts: 8,799	I'd have Lilly spayed after this litter, she's WAY too small to be breeding. Good luck with the puppies, I hope that the delivery goes smoothly. __________________ Tracy, Mom to Izzy and Luna

08-26-2007, 06:51 AM	#3
Ladyhawk YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 2,808	Bless her heart, she's so small and so young to be a mommy. I do hope that everything goes well. Do you have a breeder friendly vet who will be standing by? Have you measured her from anus to vulva and across the pelvis to see if she's large enough to free whelp? I'd be ready for a c-section just in case, better safe than sorry. __________________ Tami

08-26-2007, 07:09 AM	#4
Yorkiekids Piper & Sebastian Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: florida Posts: 14,495	I hope all goes well. You may be able to get a mentor in the Breeders section. __________________ Susan, Piper ,Harley & Suiki

08-26-2007, 08:32 AM	#5
tegamom1 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 1,548	The only sure way to prevent a breeding is spay or keep them completely seperated. I too hope she comes through this without too much difficulty. Like others have said, to young and definetly too small for breeding. Keep your vet on call and good luck. __________________ Mary Ann A'Lea Yorkshire Terriers

08-26-2007, 08:39 AM	#6
PrestigeousYT YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere Out there............ Posts: 1,742	I hope all comes out OK for Lillys sake, she is very small girl and being young on top of it. WOW scary for her. I guess you know now that belly bands and panties are for diaper reasons only and not a means for protecting from unwanted breedings. It would be better if she had more than two pups because usually they would be smaller birthweights. I do hope you have a wonderful vet who you can depend on for Lilly and a vet who will help guide you thru the process. Have you done any research on the whelping issues what is normal and what is a red flag to alert you of a problem etc? Again best of luck Deana

08-26-2007, 10:37 AM	#7
LillyH Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 73	Thank you eveyone. Yes, I've been researching like mad for the last couple of weeks. I do in fact have a very good vet who's well versed on the toy breeds and on standby. I even have home phone numbers to help speed things up if need be. Yes, I of course did my homewark & checked out a few before picking the perfect vet. This one deals with 2 seperate Chihuahua breeders as well as a few other tiny breeders. I too was extremely concearned with the age & size of her. The vet feels my fears are unwarented and that she should be just fine to free whelp. Her vulva to anus & horns are far enough apart now for puppies to pass, and said it's actually a good thing she's on the younger side at her size, because her bones are still soft enough they can spread easier just in case. However at slightly over a year old the concearns of her not being mature enough to properly care for the puppies is also no big concearn at this point either. The only concearn the vet has mentioned is for the usual complications. I have no idea why any one would automatically assume I should spay her strickly based on her size Especially since the vet feels she's fine & not once mentioned it. Wouldn't a sane person wait to see how this whelping goes before assuming she absolutley needs spaying? I wonder why in the world someone would think to suggest putting this poor little girl through a surgery on top of delivering if it's not absolutely needed? Since she is only a year old she still may have a bit of growing left to do yet, and just might have a good growth spirt left in her. Her parents are both 5 lbs so it stands to reason she may get a bit bigger yet. I too wish there were at least one more puppy... it would certainly make me feel better about the situation too. More/smaller puppies is always better. I should mention that I may be new to the breeding thing myself, but not new to whelping. I have a retired Shih-tzu breeder (vg friend) & a well renowned English Mastiff breeder freind as well, both calling daily to see how we are progressing & offering help if I need it. I've witnessed c-sections & helped raise many puppies over the years. Every 2 hour feeding, moist swipes to the rear and all. I've just never taken on the breeding task on my own before. Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their sincere & empathetic ears. It's not something that was expcted, and I truly don't feel my preventative methods were all so stupid... it's worked fine through many heats, it's just unfortunate that something went wrong this particular time. I was using a pampers diaper with elastic legs & waste band at the time... not panties. I don't believe in caging my dogs & they have free access to my entire home & sleep with me every night. Completely shutting one away would be cruel in my opinion. Not that this situation is any better... but it's done now & we are dealing with it the best way possible. From this point on (providing Lilly is ok) I won't have these huge breeding concearns. My other female is due to go into her 3rd heat soon & I intend on allowing her to mate with my male. If Lilly does in fact have problems delivering on her own, I will decide a that time wether or not to spay her once her puppies are near ready to find new homes. Thanks again and I look forward to chatting & learning from all of you Tina Last edited by LillyH; 08-26-2007 at 10:41 AM.

08-26-2007, 11:03 AM	#8
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	Best of luck to you and your girl through all this. And we know it was an accident. Only based on her weight before PG and age - she may get to 4.5 pounds at maturity. That is still so small. How large was the male? I tried to read back and find. Was he 4 pounds? You have to also take a look at the grandparents as well not just the sire. I just wanted to wish you luck and please keep us informed on how it all turns out. No one means to be harsh. We have just heard so many sad stories on YT with the small girls. If you need us - don't hesitate to ask when her time comes. T.

08-26-2007, 11:25 AM	#9
3CrazyYorkies YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Alberta ... Canada Posts: 583	Welcome to the group Lillyh -- I am from BC too where are you located. I'm sure when the time comes if you require assistance there will be lots of people here who can help you out!!

08-26-2007, 11:36 AM	#10
Ladyhawk YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 2,808	I'm glad you've found a good vet who will be there for you day or night. It's so important because as we all know they love to give birth in the middle of the night. I'm just curious as to how your going to keep the next two from tying up 2 or 3 times a day if you don't crate them or confine them in some way. Connor about drives me nuts when one of the gals are in standing heat. He'll cry all night long, I can't imagine him and a horny gal sleeping in my bed. __________________ Tami

08-26-2007, 11:44 AM	#11
Sugar's Mom BANNED! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 9,248	You said,"I have no idea why any one would automatically assume I should spay her strickly based on her size Especially since the vet feels she's fine & not once mentioned it. Wouldn't a sane person wait to see how this whelping goes before assuming she absolutley needs spaying?" it's because most of the reputable breeders on here would NEVER breed a girl less than five pounds. but you said it was accidental and I have had that happen myself. Not an accident but very poor judgement on my part. That girl only had two babies, went into labor, uterus almost ruptured before i got her to the vet. She was in surgery quickly, one baby nearly died, the other one struggled and you can bet your britches, my girl was spayed during the C-section. As far as yours having a lot of growing to do, yorkies are usually done at seven or eight months old altho they can grow a few months longer. Most don't. So don't be offended by the suggestion to have her spayed. it would be a very wise thing on your part to have done. i hope your mama will be alright. it sounds as if you have a very good vet.

08-26-2007, 02:51 PM	#12
lisatodd Little Boogers Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: virginia beach, va Posts: 4,460	Lilly 3.75 lbs... wow she is very little. i hope she does well. __________________ lisa lisa and the cult jam yorkies

08-26-2007, 04:52 PM	#13
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	size Welcome to YT..you have come to a forum full of very passionate people when it comes to the breed., so please be patient with us. Size is only one factor when breeding..and the smaller ones tend to need more help..sections, shots, forcep delivery etc...but that is not where it stops. Bitches in the 3 and 4 pound range do not always have the reserves to care for a nursing litter very long..they can go down hill quite fast. They lose weight and it can cause lingering health concerns. It is hard enough for a 5/6 pounder to nurse a litter of 4 or 5 for 4 weeks and not be stressful on her body. Vets are not the, end all be all, when it comes to breeding...you would think going to Med school would make them "breeding smart"..not always unless they actually do it and watch the effects on the smaller bitches.. All will no doubt turn out fine since you working closely with your vet.. you are preparing for the litter and will help your bitch during and after...best wishes

08-26-2007, 05:26 PM	#14
cj125 Mia, Max and Moe's Mom Donating Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 4,403	Hello Welcome to YorkieTalk LillyH! Good Luck with your upcoming litter. Hope they're healthy and happy babies! As far a size and weight on our Yorkies... it's my opinion that every one is different and only if you know the sizes of the parents & grandparents on both sides will you be able to estimate their size. My Mia grew quite a bit after in her 8th month. Infact, she hasn't gained weight but grew an inch in her chest in the last 3-4 months. Oh by the way - she's 18 months old! She's a late bloomer. Now, my Max is very close to Mia's measurements but he weighs less and he's only 4 1/2 months old! Your girl may very well grow more Either way - good luck and hope to see you around! __________________ *Connie* Mia Max Moe

08-26-2007, 07:06 PM	#15
LillyH Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 73	Thank you to each and all of you. I should have maybe written Lilly's size in a different manner. Her exact weight before pregnancy was 3 lbs 11 oz. I just wrote it as 3.75 to keep it simple... actually meaning 3 & 3/4 lbs. I realise now that the way I wrote it, it appears that she is 3 lbs 7 1/2 ounces & that's just not so. Sorry for any confusion. I'm sure most will still consider her extremely tiny, but at least not quite as tiny as I'm sure you may have been thinking. Yes cj125, I agree completely that she still may grow a bit yet. Her parents are both in the 5-5.5 lbs area, and same wih her grandparents. My male I have no idea of his grandparents, but his Dad is 3.5 lbs, and his Mom is just over 4 lbs. It would take some doing to find out grandparents exact weights. However he was exactly 4 lbs 3 oz when he and Lilly mated. I've been temperature taking 3-4times a day for the last week & weighing her every morning just to keep on top of it all. So far no real signs of labour yet. Her temp just keeps fluctuating up & down between 100.1 & 99.3. She did start nesting in her whelping box lastnight for the first time, so we know the time is drawing near. Yes, my vet seems quite compitent, I just wish the office was closer than the 20+ min drive. I've made sure to keep my car gassed up just in case. Its sad because I have a vet office less than 5 minutes up the road, but they really don't seem quite as knowledgable when it comes to the tiny dogs. Not to mention they wanted over $150 for an x-ray, and require an automatic $1000 deposit up front right away if there is even a remote chance of a c-section needed. I found that a bit rude & abnoxious myself... since they hadn't even seen my girl yet. Speaking of whelping boxes... I built mine out of a large tote & put the dowels in at 2" depth & height like suggested, but I'm wondering if the side rails are really so important? I know the purpose is to prevent Mama from squishing or suffocating the puppies, but at her size should I really be so concearned? I only ask because it seems like she is really put off by them & is more hesitant to stay in there now that I put them in. She absolutely loved it before that. I went a little over board with curtains that slide completely out of the way hanging over the doorway... but it looks so much like a cozy little home & so much cuter now Thanks again to all of you :-) Tina Last edited by LillyH; 08-26-2007 at 07:10 PM.