Early Spay/Neuter - Page 5 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

BamaFan121s · 02-02-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Hurray....a point of agreement!!

.

Ha...you know, this may NEVER happen again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have never said any different but the breeder who practices ESN takes the choice away from the pet owner.

If ALL breeders did this then the decision would be FORCED on every pet owner. Now the pet owner who may choose not to neuter for whatever reason will have to choose to buy from a breeder who will respect their rights as the owner to make that elective health decision.

Yes, the breeder who does s/n take the choice away. If you are looking for a pup, it is your right not to buy from the breeder just as it is the breeders choice to s/n as they feel it is best for the pups. If they don't want this, look elsewhere.

Off the subject, how the heck did we end up here?

SoCalyorkiLvr · 02-02-2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Ha...you know, this may NEVER happen again!

Yes, the breeder who does s/n take the choice away. If you are looking for a pup, it is your right not to buy from the breeder just as it is the breeders choice to s/n as they feel it is best for the pups. If they don't want this, look elsewhere.

Off the subject, how the heck did we end up here?

I started the thread to learn about ESN and to help others learn as well. This has been accomplished and the fact that some breeders choose to use ESN in their program is something that pet buyers need to be aware of so they can make their decisions on what puppy to purchase.

It has been a natural progression of the thread topic and I think we did a good job of staying ON Topic except for the questions about Hefner's breeder?

Sherry Lynn · 02-02-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Why would you not have them until after? Did your breeder not give you medical records? I would think medical history would be a responsibility carried out before the purchase? I just don't understand.

I have to wonder, too. Unless someone wants to breed, why in the world they would not want to s/n their pets?? And even then, while it is not something any one of us has control over, not all breeders breed with a true understanding of the responsibilities that breeding entails. We can find proof of that in the abundance of shelters across the nation and the number of posts seen on this forum. Many people are completely jejune when it comes to the risks of breeding 'just so the kids can see the miracle' or 'my cousin wants a free pet'....

I thought we have all agreed that we would want what is best for the animals in our care. As much as we want to consider them a part of our family (and I do), they are still animals. As their caregivers we are responsible for doing what is best for them.

While I'm all for holistic and alternative health/pet care, and a practioner of both, I feel that this topic needs to be considered with a more realistic mindset. Surgery might not be the answer to everything, but vitamins, flower essences and essential oils aren't alway the answer either.

Of the many (always s/n) pets that I have owned in my life, I have never lost any of them for reasons other than natural causes or mercy euthanasia. Never a lost/tragic ending. All have lived a long healthy and comfortable life. I feel that should be considered responsible pet ownership.

As always the standard disclaimer: This is just my humble opinion and not directed at anyone in particular....

BamaFan121s · 02-02-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

It has been a natural progression of the thread topic and I think we did a good job of staying ON Topic except for the questions about Hefner's breeder?

That again was natural progression, I guess. I really wasn't questioning her ethics or practices, please don't think that.

I was just curious and I AM sorry if you feel I got to personal....I know that there have been times I've been ready to have your head on a platter when I thought you were too deep into mine...

Oops!

luvdorkyyorkies · 02-02-2006, 07:38 PM

Hello all,

I asked my vet about early spay and neuter, hes pretty old school.........his personal belief and practice is 5-6 months at the earliest. I cant give you studies or web notes or addresses as to why. He simply said its better for the puppy in his opinion, letting their anatomy mature, their overall growth ( including hormones) then he will perform the surgery. I respect his opinion hes been my vet for many a year.
He did give me a long talk about spay and neuter contracts. He asked me to implement them.
I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime.
Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason.

diva pup · 02-02-2006, 07:59 PM

Quotelovedorkyyorkies"I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime.
Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason."

I am not sure if I am reading this right, are you saying NOT to buy from a breeder with a s/n contract??
If I am buying a pet I wouldn't buy from anyone without one.
That to me is a sign of a GOOD breeder, one that cares about the welfare of their dogs and bloodlines. Just because a dog has papers does not mean he/she should reproduce. If I somehow read this post wrong I apologize and again if this goes off topic.

luvdorkyyorkies · 02-02-2006, 08:24 PM

No I am not saying to not buy from a spay neuter breeder.
I am trying to say that if you do and agree to the terms, the dog is to be spayed or neutered, breeding was never agreed upon and isnt an option.

diva pup · 02-02-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvdorkyyorkies

No I am not saying to not buy from a spay neuter breeder.
I am trying to say that if you do and agree to the terms, the dog is to be spayed or neutered, breeding was never agreed upon and isnt an option.

Thanks Kelly, for clearing that up. That one sentence caught me off guard

SoCalyorkiLvr · 02-02-2006, 08:30 PM

I agreed to never breed Ava or Chai but one of the reasons I felt as comfortable as I did with both their breeders is that they BOTH advised against spaying either of them due to their size and the risks of the surgery not outweighing the benefits. This to me shows that they truly cared about the dogs and not protecting their lines at all costs.

I believe that many of the breeders on here would be able to trust their customers in this respect as well. Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard. Certainly worth the effort to avoid the pain, risk and expense of this major surgery.

livingdustmops · 02-02-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Thank you for this Cindy as I had not read of the increased risk of parvo virus in early spay/neuter puppies.....that is pretty scary. Parvo is awful as we all know.

I had read that there was concern that the surgery may interfere with vaccination effectiveness but I guess this new study proves it ...at least where parvo is concerned.

It may be fine for shelters and rescues to practice ESN due to pet over population but I think pet owners who can responsibly prevent unwanted pregnancy should make their own choices for for their fur family members. IMO it would not be fair to impose this practice on the typical pet owner who knows how to properly contain their yorkie. Yorkies are mostly indoor dogs and the issues of roaming, etc., are really not as big a concern as they are with bigger dogs who are outside a lot.

JMHO.

Kim, you missed my point on the thread where I posted two links regarding ESN and the top vet schools endorsing ESN and disputing many of the "why you should not spay/neuter" a dog and you picked the one thing "parvo in puppies" to endorse your theory. I am sorry I cannot agree with you at all about the typical pet owner who knows how to properly contain their Yorkie. Every week someone posts an "oops" on here and again we add to the pet over population. Just today a member wrote that her little girl is going through her first heat and asked if she should keep her male away from her. We can all guess what will happen there.

The question I have to ask is where is your social responsibility. How can anyone sleep at night knowing 5 MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized every year. I have been in the room with dogs piled high in garbage bins, DEAD because of the over population. This includes small dogs which will only get worse because of the popularity of small dogs. I really wish you would go to the pound day after day and see the results of people not neutering their animals and you would understand the passion I feel along with many people in rescue and yes most vets because they understand the real harm of not spaying and neutering and it is an early DEATH. Every reputable Yorkie rescue group that I know endorses spay and neuter because they love Yorkies and they love dogs. Even Dr. Pitcairn's believes in spaying and neutering your pet.
I felt the two threads I posted would show that many of the concerns you talked about were very slim compared to the bigger picture and in fact some of it disputed some of the facts you stated.
You know I never had children but I have always felt a social responsibility for all of the children of this country and in fact my taxes pay for many services for children. I believe we are all responsible to help each child and I don't complain about my taxes spent on them. I also believe as dog lovers we all have a responsibility to protect as many dogs as we can, be it through legislation or as simple as spaying and neutering our dogs.
While I can respect your position for your dogs, I cannot understand why you keep trying to push this on people who you don't know will be responsible pet owners. Were you aware of these statistics:
•Only 38% of all dogs and cats will remain in their first home for their entire lives.
•Nationally, over 50% of all adopted animals are no longer in their adoptive home after just the first year.
We have had YT members be part of these statistics so we cannot assume that every member on YT will be a "responsible dog owner" and protect their dogs from breeding again. You have scared many young members into believing they are doing the wrong thing by spaying/neutering their dogs.
You know I love my dogs as much as you do and maybe even more because of the rough start they had in life. I didn't buy them but earned their love through my rescue efforts. I took the throw away dogs and gave them a home, security and love but as someone who has compassion for the millions killed every year because of the pet overpopulation, you are darn right I spayed/neutered every rescue who came through. We have got to stop what is going on in this country as we are losing our souls.

diva pup · 02-02-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I agreed to never breed Ava or Chai but one of the reasons I felt as comfortable as I did with both their breeders is that they BOTH advised against spaying either of them due to their size and the risks of the surgery not outweighing the benefits. This to me shows that they truly cared about the dogs and not protecting their lines at all costs.

I believe that many of the breeders on here would be able to trust their customers in this respect as well. Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard. Certainly worth the effort to avoid the pain, risk and expense of this major surgery.

Frankly I think that is a pretty naive way of looking at things. I don't think most breeders know all their buyers well enough to know whether they can be totally trusted or not. And not "all" yorkie owners are responsible people. Case in point the hundreds of puppymillers that have yorkies. I would think it would be virtually impossible to find out the true nature and intent of every person buying a dog, that is when that contract and limited registration comes into play. Of course there are now ways of getting around that too with all the new registries cropping up.

BamaFan121s · 02-02-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard.effort to

Yeah, you would think so, but sadly, this is not always the case. Accidents of all kinds can happen with even the most responsible owners. ANY kind of accident, not just pregnancy, but anything, the dog getting out of the house and getting lost/run over/stolen, injury from being stepped on, etc. I know one time I opened the door to put something on the porch and as I turned one way to come in, Trixie ran behind my back the other way and I left her outside. Now, she never left the porch and scratched in about 30 seconds to come in...but I didn't know she was out there!

What if someone had stolen her, or worse, what if she'd gotten hit by a car--such a scary thought, Kim, I know you can vouch for that one. Or what if she'd been in heat and a local male walked up. Accidents can happen even w/ responsible owners...don't you agree? My point is, it may not always be in the best interest of the dog to let them go intact, even to a responsible owner because accidents of all kinds DO happen.

luvdorkyyorkies · 02-02-2006, 08:50 PM

Im going to agree with both your breeders.
Not because I know either one or because its just what I think. Only because of the advice I was given by my own vet and a second opinion by another vet.
It was given because I asked about spaying due to the condition of an inguinal hernia on two girls, I thought since surgery would have to be performed on the lil girls..........why not spay them during the one surgery to prevent an additional surgery. Both the vets didnt want to spay the girls at 9 weeks, the other at 11 weeks.
If someone elses vet advises different Im not arguing with it, some views Im sure has to do with their own beliefs and comfort zone or studies they know.
My vet just wont perform early s/n, but he does encourage me to put a contract in place with a no breeding clause at the minimum that does not necessarily mean the pet has to be altered, (JUST NOT BRED)

BamaFan121s · 02-02-2006, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

We have had YT members be part of these statistics so we cannot assume that every member on YT will be a "responsible dog owner" and protect their dogs from breeding again.

I don't think any of us have the right to say who is and isn't a responsible pet owner...we can try, but we could never get it right. People with even the highest and best intentions can still have accidents, of ALL kinds. Did they mean for these things to happen? No, of course not, but sometimes they do anyway.
No to make an assumption on her behalf, please correct me if I have stated a falsehood, but I don't think Kim is neccessarily arguing this fact. I know that because of experiences she has had herself, she can presumably relate. (Again, correct me if I am wrong

) Sometimes things slip out of our hands and are beyond our control.

luvdorkyyorkies · 02-02-2006, 09:03 PM

Sometimes with the very best of intentions, mistakes are made.
BELEIVE ME! I know

mistakes were made so we could learn from them......maybe the first time maybe the second........

.........maybe the third time........on and on
........Im still making them............Ill die making them.......Some people never learn......

02-02-2006, 07:38 PM	#65
luvdorkyyorkies BANNED! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,681	Hello all, I asked my vet about early spay and neuter, hes pretty old school.........his personal belief and practice is 5-6 months at the earliest. I cant give you studies or web notes or addresses as to why. He simply said its better for the puppy in his opinion, letting their anatomy mature, their overall growth ( including hormones) then he will perform the surgery. I respect his opinion hes been my vet for many a year. He did give me a long talk about spay and neuter contracts. He asked me to implement them. I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime. Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason.

02-02-2006, 07:59 PM	#66
diva pup BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,139	Quotelovedorkyyorkies"I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime. Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason." I am not sure if I am reading this right, are you saying NOT to buy from a breeder with a s/n contract?? If I am buying a pet I wouldn't buy from anyone without one. That to me is a sign of a GOOD breeder, one that cares about the welfare of their dogs and bloodlines. Just because a dog has papers does not mean he/she should reproduce. If I somehow read this post wrong I apologize and again if this goes off topic.

02-02-2006, 08:24 PM	#67
luvdorkyyorkies BANNED! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,681	No I am not saying to not buy from a spay neuter breeder. I am trying to say that if you do and agree to the terms, the dog is to be spayed or neutered, breeding was never agreed upon and isnt an option.

02-02-2006, 08:30 PM	#69
SoCalyorkiLvr BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8,246	I agreed to never breed Ava or Chai but one of the reasons I felt as comfortable as I did with both their breeders is that they BOTH advised against spaying either of them due to their size and the risks of the surgery not outweighing the benefits. This to me shows that they truly cared about the dogs and not protecting their lines at all costs. I believe that many of the breeders on here would be able to trust their customers in this respect as well. Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard. Certainly worth the effort to avoid the pain, risk and expense of this major surgery.

02-02-2006, 08:50 PM	#73
luvdorkyyorkies BANNED! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,681	Im going to agree with both your breeders. Not because I know either one or because its just what I think. Only because of the advice I was given by my own vet and a second opinion by another vet. It was given because I asked about spaying due to the condition of an inguinal hernia on two girls, I thought since surgery would have to be performed on the lil girls..........why not spay them during the one surgery to prevent an additional surgery. Both the vets didnt want to spay the girls at 9 weeks, the other at 11 weeks. If someone elses vet advises different Im not arguing with it, some views Im sure has to do with their own beliefs and comfort zone or studies they know. My vet just wont perform early s/n, but he does encourage me to put a contract in place with a no breeding clause at the minimum that does not necessarily mean the pet has to be altered, (JUST NOT BRED)

02-02-2006, 09:03 PM	#75
luvdorkyyorkies BANNED! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,681	Sometimes with the very best of intentions, mistakes are made. BELEIVE ME! I know mistakes were made so we could learn from them......maybe the first time maybe the second........ .........maybe the third time........on and on ........Im still making them............Ill die making them.......Some people never learn......