Thought Provoking

[gemy]

Rethinking The Ethics of Animal Rescue | Bedlam Farm Journal


And as of now, there is little rational argument about animal ethics, the current ethos argues that the lives of all animals are precious, animals have equal, even superior rights than human beings, and animals must be given perfect lives and kept alive at all costs by any means. This widespread and fiercely defended ideology is not, to me, ethical or merciful, it is actually causing much suffering to people and to animals, and greatly accelerating the disappearance of animals from their habitats and from ours, and thus from the world.


This quote from the linked article particularly provoked my thinking. I know very little about horses or elephants - and some about dogs. The bolded part I particularly agree with. Who lives as a human a *perfect* life? I don't believe that a dog owner should bankrupt themselves or their families to keep a dog alive. There is a time to let go. New medical advances give we dog owners many more options - but at what cost? Just because a medical procedure can be done - does it automatically follow it should be done?


Should we deny seniors the ability to own cats or dogs - because we think that a life with a senior will somehow be less for the dog or cat? Rescues who deny ownership of an animal just because they don't have a fenced in yard? Oh I know that there are rationales - we humans are great at rationalizing away or for anything we decide to do.

[Potter]

You know, you do have a point there. I have been thinking on and off about this topic especially since Malaysia, my original home country has been culling street dogs which breaks my heart. Truth be told, I'd rather these dogs have a less than perfect home where they stay by themselves for 8 hours a day because the owners have to work but get the safety of a shelter, food and is taken care of medically when needed OR a home where there is no fence but the owners are able to walk them rather than living on the streets or being put to sleep in the shelter.

We don't live in a perfect world and to be able to provide for the dogs and a home, most people need to work to be able to do that. Is it really okay for dogs to stay in a shelter for a long time rather than adopting them out to a less than perfect home but the owners at least try to make it good and comfortable for the adopted dogs? That is where the question comes in.

[Wylie's Mom]

I read the article and while I agree w/ a bit of it, I disagree with just as much of it....and the way it's slanted. A good / interesting read nonetheless. It does come off as a bit paranoid though....?

In the 2nd to last closing paragraph, the author mentions this "sacred contract btwn society and the animal world" -- and I personally know of NO such sacred contract on the part of *most* humans toward animals...quite the reverse in fact. Most humans seem to feel animals are put here to do their bidding and to be at their mercy -- I do not feel that is true; in addition, I do not feel many humans to be truly capable of real mercy toward animals in general...I see quite the reverse all too often.

[Yorkiemom1]

I have been fighting this quiet, subtle, behind the scenes push by the likes of PETA, and ......OMG! I am having a total memory shutdown......SUSTINE!!!! sp may be incorrect.....just Google Sustine, I think his first name is Carl....he was advocating lawyers to represent animals in court, to prosecute humans for murdering animals for meat....dont even get me started on this crazy man!!!!...but the man and his followers want to incorporate lawyers to represent animals against humans in court, where animals can SUE human beings to promote animal rights......including but not limited to, sueing humans for MURDER because they are raising meat (cattle, sheep,,chickens, etc) for consumption by humans....completely OFF THE WALL!!! I was actively involved in fighting these preposterous ideas for over 25+ years...I do not want to even go here with THIS group of nuts, who place animal rights OVER human rights......not animal welfare, but animal RIGHTS!!! There is a HUGE difference! Does "Planet of the Apes" ring a bell?? "What about "Animal Farm".....???

[Yorkiemom1]

Cass Sustein!!! Read up on him and his CRAZY ideas and what he is trying to push through as law!!! If he had his way, ......well just read about him and his CRAZY ideas on what HE and his movement consider appropriate when it comes to animal-human relationships!!!

[lisaly]

Last school year I read a book with my students that raised their awareness about animal welfare The One and Only Ivan. Although it's more geared to younger students, we explored issues at a higher level. The book won a Newberry Award and is very touching. It's inspired by a story about Ivan, a silverback gorilla who lived in a shopping mall for 27 years and was finally brought to Zoo Atlanta to live out the rest of his life. The video Urban Gorilla brought attention to Ivan's plight, and it's worth the 52 minutes spent viewing it. I loved the documentary, and so did my students.

While we were exploring the novel, we talked about a current animal rights case about two chimpanzees, Hercules and Leo, who were being used for experimentation by Stony Brook University. Nonhumanrightsproject.org stated, "Stony Brook University indicated at the end of July that it would no longer experiment on Hercules and Leo and we are deep in negotiations with Stony Brook and with Hercules’ and Leo’s “owner” the New Iberia Research Center to settle the case and have Hercules and Leo transferred to Save the Chimps or an appropriate member sanctuary of the North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance. We’ve made clear that if Stony Brook attempts to move Hercules and Leo to any place other than one of the aforementioned sanctuaries, we’ll immediately seek a preliminary injunction to prevent this move pending the outcome of all appeals (as we succeeded in doing in Tommy’s case last year)." They also stated the following: "The Nonhuman Rights Project has filed a Notice of Appeal to the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court, First Judicial Department, from a decision and order in “Hercules and Leo” case on August 5, 2015, denying a petition for a writ of habeas corpus." (See Ted talk link below).

All of this is thought provoking to say the least. I strongly believe in animal awareness and welfare, and at first glance I can be swayed about animal rights, as well. Then I am reminded of what is done by some in the name of animal rights and the abuses that it can lead to, and it makes me very sad. Although there is a great deal of Pollyanna in me, and I am an optimist, I believe it's always imperative to educate oneself further and question. Thanks, Gail, for sharing this with us. I've never seen John Katz' website, but I have purchased some of his books to read when I have some more time on my hands.


The Urban Gorilla -- ArgoFilms.com
from Allison Argo
Produced, Written & Directed by Allison Argo, The Urban Gorilla was made as an independent film and broadcast by National Geographic in 1991. This compelling and intimate look at gorillas living in captivity won dozens of awards, including a duPont Columbia Award and two Emmy nominations. The film was narrated by Glenn Close.

Ivan, a solitary silverback living at the B&I shopping mall in Washington State, was featured in The Urban Gorilla. After the film was broadcast, protests led to Ivan being transferred to Zoo Atlanta - where he felt the sun, walked on the grass and saw other gorillas for the first time in nearly 30 years.

https://vimeo.com/87866211 Urban Gorilla video

The One and Only Ivan: Katherine Applegate,...

Steven Wise: Chimps have feelings and thoughts. They should also have rights | TED Talk | TED.com

Notice of Appeal Filed in Hercules and Leo Case : The Nonhuman Rights Project

[gemy]

Thank YOU Lisa for the reference I will read that book shortly.


Ethical treatment of animals - where to start? We humans have not even sorted out ethical treatment of humans - bioethics - scientific ethics - cultural ethics etc. We have hardly a nursery school primer on ethics. Across even our own culture we have hardly started to define concepts - argue those - and at its most basic even understand that ethics - unlike certain natural laws say gravity - will change over time - for how can they not? Ethics are rooted firmly in the messy, muddy grey zone.


You can't dissect on an anatomy table a particular ethic. Its nerves and blood supply are ever changing - based on many factors - again not clearly understood.


And so we individual human beings - muddle along. Answering questions for ourself (and btw in our individual methodology) - how much exercise for a dog is too little? Too much? What kind of food to feed - is kibble really so bad? What in xxx name is going on with Vaccines? How much and what kind of discipline for my dog? How long alone can I leave my dog? To crate train or not? How many times to the vet a year? When to go? How do I know if my dog is happy? What does it mean if he is not? Does an unhappy dog make me a bad person?


And yes there are many books written by *experts* that can and often do easily contradict one another. But still we go to them for advice, ideas, and some semblance of how to critically think on a topic.


We have not even sussed out the boundaries and scope of *animal rights* to discuss rationally. Why are we even talking about it? Is a worm to have the same rights as a human? Maybe evolution might see somewhere down the road true consciousness in say dogs or horses - but it is not here yet. IMO much before this happens we will have a crisis of human population outgrowing the ariable farmable land. Meat might just become waytoo expensive to farm. God knows we do not have a human handle on population overgrowth.


All of us may be forced to become vegetarians as a matter of economic necessity.


But back to dogs. I believe a dog finds most joy in working with and for their human! Dogs for the most part have a deeply ingrained need to work and be usefull. In these when so much of our population is rooted in a urban life - working dogs don't seem to be needed by humans or the concept is not even in most humans understanding of dogs. But you have a retriever get them to fetch your newspaper or slippers - train them from a young age.
You have a scent dog - then play find the treat or the toy! THe list goes on and on and on.


But here is an ethical question - just because you don't train, don't exercise your couch potatoe, don't even teach them the most basic of manners - does this mean you are being cruel to your dog? Is cruelty only about lack of food - or medical care - or too stern a discipline? And if so when and where does benign neglect slip into cruelty?